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Messages - pcnd5584

#241
Quote from: Jonathan Lane on July 13, 2011, 10:16:27 PM
Dare we ask what size space the organ is in?

Jonathan

A good question. With a comparatively large amount of upperwork, hopefully not too small.
#242
Organ registration / Re: Couplers on Pistons
July 13, 2011, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 13, 2011, 09:43:22 AM
Hi

Personally, I find the inevitable Gt to Pedal Pistons coupler of limited use - I don't always want the pedal to follow the gt registrations - especially when playing on another manual.

I supose it's down to playing style, and the type of music used - I do very little (if I'm honest, currently none!) liturgical or choral accompaniment - just leading hymns and playing voluntaries and the odd concert - plus the fact that I've never regularly played an organ with more than a handful of pistons - often just a couple of "composition pedals" - or no registration aids, so I tend to hand register a lot - even on instruments with a lot of pistons.  If it's appropriate, I might set some generals up for the start of various items, and I'll use the pp-ff divisional settings to some extent, but I've never come to rely on pistons.

Every Blessing

Tony

As you say, it may be that fact that you do little liturgical accompaniment. Believe me, if you do - particularly with mininmal rehearsal time, the Great and Pedal Pistons coupler is extremely useful.

If one were playing on another clavier than the G.O., then the H&H device of Pedal to Swell Pistons is most useful. This gives a separate Pedal combination to match whatever is drawn (or pressed) on the Swell Organ. Exeter Cathedral is again an example of this.
#243
Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 12, 2011, 11:40:55 PM


... As a comment in passing rather than in any way considering the schemes comprehensively off the cuff, I'm not quite sure of the value of a 16 Quintaton as the main 16ft base for the manuals as the 5th close to the 8ft is out of the 8ft harmonic series and will muddy it up. It all depends on how subtle it is, I suppose. . . but presumably it will provide a richesse. ...
Best wishes

David P

The JW Walker insrument at Wimborne Minster has such a stop as the only G.O. sub-unison flue. It is, quite simply, superb; and I would not exchange it for a second. It is something of a chameleon, being able to provide a suitable foundation for the full G.O., yet also blending well with the flutes. It is a most versatile stop - even effective played an octave higher as a solo.
#244
To keep the same number of stops for each division (but also dispensing with the borrowed Solo Organ), I suggest the following:

PEDAL ORGAN

Contra Bass  (W+M) 16
Bourdon 16
Quintatön  (G.O.)  16
Quint  (Std. W) 10 2/3
Octave  (M) 8
Stopped Flute  (Ext.) 8
Fifteenth 4
Grand Bombarde  (W) 16
Bass Trumpet  (Swell) 16
Trumpet  (W+M; ext.) 8
Choir to Pedal
Choir Octave to Pedal
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal

Pedal to Great Pistons
Great to Pedal Pistons


CHOIR ORGAN
(Enclosed)

Lieblich Bourdon 16
Open Diapason 8
Flûte Harmonique 8
Violoncello 8
Violoncello Céleste  (CC) 8
Lieblich Gedeckt 8
Gemshorn  (Conical) 4
Suabe Flöte 4
Flageolet 2
Mixture  (15-19-22)
Cor Anglais  (73 pipes) 16
Corno di Bassetto 8
Tremulant
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave
Swell to Choir


GREAT ORGAN

Quintatön 16
Open Diapason I 8
Open Diapason II 8
Rohr Flöte 8
Octave 4
Wald Flöte 4
Super Octave 2
Mixture  (19-22-26-29) IV
Posaune 8
Reed on Choir
Choir to Great
Swell to Great


SWELL ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Salicional 8
Vox Angelica  (AA) 8
Geigen Principal 4
Fifteenth 2
Sharp Mixture  (22-26-29) III
Hautboy 8
Tremulant
Double Trumpet 16
Cornopean 8
Clarion 4
Sub Octave
Unison Off
Octave


NOTES

The Great Organ is entirely unenclosed.
I have reduced the Choir Organ in size, rationalising and re-apportioning the reed stops.
All stops are of complete compass, unless otherwise stated. No ranks are prepared-for.




#245
Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 12, 2011, 09:52:40 AM
I am assuming that we're talking here of an instrument designed for liturgical use, some impressive voluntaries and maybe some recitals. Shall we say 20 ranks? Here's my nearly-all-enclosed take:

Pedal
1 -   Acoustic Bass 32' (unison from Great Bass, quint from Dulciana)
2 -   Great Bass 16' (open wood pipes, large scale, high pressure)
3 -   Dulciana 16' (from GO)
4 -   Bourdon 16' (from Swell)
5 -   Octave 8' (ext. Great Bass)
6 -   Flute 8' (ext. Bourdon)
7 -   Flute 4' (ext. Bourdon)
8 -   Trombone 16' (ext. GO Posaune)
9 -   Baryton 16' (from Swell)
10 -   Posaune 8' (from GO)

Great
11 -   Dulciana 16' (unenclosed)
12 -   Open Diapason I 8' (leathered, high pressure)
13 -   Open Diapason II 8' (unenclosed)
14 -   Hohl Flute 8'
15 -   Principal 4' (unenclosed)
16 -   Octave Flute 4'
17 -   Fifteenth 2' (unenclosed)
18 -   Mixture IV (19.22.26.29) (unenclosed, to be installed when funds permit more ranks)
19 -   Posaune 8' (enclosed in own box)

Swell
20 -   Lieblich Bourdon 16'
21 -   Viole d'Orchestre 8'
22 -   Voix celeste 8'
23 -   Lieblich Gedact 8' (independent of L.Bourdon)
24 -   Lieblich Flute 4'
25 -   Flautina 2'
26 -   Baryton 16'
27 -   Cornopean 8'
28 -   Hautboy 8'
29 -   Vox Humana 8'
30 -   Clarinet 8'

Choir
31 -   Dulciana 16'
32 -   Viola 8'
33 -   Celeste 8'
34 -   Hohl Flute 8'
35 -   Lieblich Flute 8'
36 -   Unda Maris 8' (from 8ft flutes)
37 -   Octave Flute 4'
38 -   Lieblich Flute 4'
39 -   Flautina 2'
40 -   Baryton 16'
41 -   Vox Humana 8'
42 -   Hautboy 8'
43 -   Clarinet 8'
44 -   Posaune 8'
45 -   Cornopean 8'

Solo
46 -   Open Diapason 8' (from GO No1)
47 -   Viole d'Orchestre 8' (from Swell)
48 -   Hohl Flute 8' (from GO)
49 -   Octave Flute 4' (from GO)
50 -   Trombone 16' (from Pedal)
51 -   Cornopean 8' (from Swell)
52 -   Solo Posaune 8' (from Great Posaune)
53 -   Clarinet 8' (from Swell)

The Unda Maris (a flute celeste) might be a cheat, but it ought to work, the two ranks beating slightly against each other - an idea nicked from PCND5584's post on the Mander forum of Jan 2 2006... The unenclosed Great diapason chorus would be along Lewis/Walcker lines, the rest more Norman & Beardish... and if you think that won't work, go and hear the 1902 N&B in Colchester's Moot Hall! Lewis was working for N&B at the time and so it's a lot brighter than you'd expect. Also, if you wish to quibble with the widespread use of pedal ranks on the manuals, or the placing of the Vox Humana on a separate manual (as at Saint-Brieuc) go and complain to Monsieur Cavaillé-Coll!  ;) This one is admittedly borrowed from the Swell, but could be used thereby either as a solo stop or in alternatim with other Swell stops. The whole Choir is, actually, derived from other manuals, as per Mercklin practice, with the exception of the Clarinet (Belgian-style free-reed?). The Baryton stop is a sort of 16ft Vox Humana, used by Willis, C-C, Brindley & Foster and others - useful not only as a chorus reed but also for the full Wurlitzer effect!

So, a four-manual (sort of), 53-stop instrument, all from just twenty ranks, without any manual extension (except the Solo Trombone/Posaune)! I've modified the post several times and it's turned into a sort of Audsleyesque concept, albeit without a load of floating departments (though I suppose each manual department could be floating, so it could be assigned to any manual). I guess the next step would be to go down the Compton route and extend everything... or is that cheating?

I'm sure the high-pressure reeds and leathered diapasons will please PCND  ;)

Actually, I doubt that any of this would please me. Now, to dissect the scheme.

The PEDAL ORGAN - only one independent rank. This is inadvisable. Whilst Col. Dixon and later, Arthur Harrison,  recognised the usefulness of making certain 16ft. clavier stops also available on the Pedal Organ, they generally provided a little more in the way of independent 16ft. ranks. There is no chorus here to speak of. This would be quite unsatisfactory. This department needs more pipework of its own - and in a logical order.

The Acoustic Bass is unlikely to work. The quint needs to come from a fairly pure flute with, for want of a better term,  'neutral' harmonics. A Dulciana is no good at all - there will be too much edge to the tone, albeit quiet.

Extending the G.O. reed down an octave to provide a Pedal reed is acceptable.

The CHOIR ORGAN. whilst one could cheat and provide a flute céleste, by adding an extra drawstop to control both ranks simultaneously - why bother? It is just as easy to draw both stops at once. However, this is not the only problem. One of the ranks, either the Hohl Flute or the Lieblich Flute (this should be called Lieblich Gedeckt, or Gedackt, at 8ft, pitch) will have to be tuned sharp (preferably not flat) to beat with the other unison rank; this will inevitably preclude its use as a solo stop, or in combination with the other ranks on this department.

With regard to the reeds, it appears that they are simply borrowed from the Swell Organ. Again - why bother? I can see little value in so many stops being made to draw on multiple divisions. It may perhaps be useful to have a solo reed * (or perhaps the G.O. reeds) available as a separate drawstop on another department - but not whole swathes of stops. The Swell Organ has one or two quieter ranks (on paper), which would be suitable to provide an accompaniment to the Clarinet, for example. The Hautboy should be on the Swell Organ only.

The GREAT ORGAN. So here, where there is the only real attempt on paper to design a diapason chorus, the only compound stop is apparently prepared-for. Again, this is highly unsatisfactory. There is a large, leathered Open Diapason - quite simply: why? It has been proven that excellent results can be obtained without recourse to this little trick. Then we have another Hohl Flute and Octave Flute - or perhaps they are also borrowed from the Choir Organ. If not, why duplicate the tonality?

In addition, it would be preferable to have the G.O. reed on an open soundboard. Otherwise, virtually the entire instrument will sound as if it is situated in the next town.

The SWELL ORGAN. This is sheer nonsense. No Diapason chorus - in fact, no Diapason at all. No mixture. Just another collection of flutes. The reeds are available on two other departments. In addition, the Viole d'Orchestre and companion undulant would need skilful voicing in order to blend with the family of Lieblich Flutes. Such keen strings generally mix better with more orchestral type flutes (Claribels, Flauti Traversi, Hohl Flutes, Flûtes Harmoniques, etc). The Lieblich type pipes blend better with Salicionals and Vox Angelicas - as FHW well knew.

The SOLO ORGAN - a mere collection of stops from the other divisions, available on yet another clavier - forget it!

It is difficult to discern what use such a scheme is likely to be. What were the thoughts behind this design? As it stands at present, on paper it is capable of little more than some pretty sounds and a seamless crescendo up to a somewhat thick and dull-sounding full organ. I can think of no voluntaries, impressive or otherwise, which I should wish to play on such an instrument.

You cite Lewis and HN&B in defence of your scheme, but the tonal ideals (and their subsequent realisation) are worlds away from the above. You apparently give no credence to the fact that that the Colchester Moot Hall Pedal Organ (of four stops) actually has more independent pipework than your own scheme, there is a secondary Diapason chorus (including a total of eight ranks of mixture-work §), there is also considerably less borrowing - or duplication. In fact, this type of late-Romantic voicing only works because of two factors. Firstly, at that time, HN&B employed good voicers (or in some cases, contracted-out to people such as William Cyples Jones). Secondly, despite a close association with the style of stop-list and voicing favoured by Robert Hope-Jones, HN&B never lost sight entirely of the chorus structures of William Hill.

Give me time to get some food, and I shall try to produce a re-working of your scheme.

I am going to need a really big skip, though....


* This arrangement currently obtains on the H&H instrument in Wells Cathedral, for example.

§ True, these probably both contained tierce ranks, and one may even have included the anti-social flat twenty-first.
#246
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on May 05, 2010, 12:57:53 AM
Quote from: organforumadmin on April 17, 2010, 01:13:46 PM
Hi!

I'm wondering if one can design a really exciting organ with minimum spec?

Recit
Salicional
Voix Celeste
Principal
Cornet V - in seperately registerable ranks
Trompette
Bombarde

Grande Orgue
Montre 8
Principal 4
Bourdon 8
Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Sifflot 1
En Chamade trumpet 8

Positif
Quintadina 8Flute 8Flute 4Tierce Piccolo 1Cromorne 8

Pedal
Bourdon
Bombarde from Recit

Oh dear - that comes to over 20 ranks . . . £500k ? One might enclose Recit and Positif . . .

Temperament - Kellner or D'Alembert?

Best wishes

Forum Admin

Simples... http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=P00563

There simply never has been a 16-stop organ that versatile before. It does pretty much everything convincingly. Now, it just needs an acoustic to speak into...

I am not sure about this.

To take the Récit first: there is a solitary Principal 4ft., but no 8ft. Diapason - or even an 8ft. Flute (it would be extremely unusual for the Cornet to sound below G20 at the lowest). The Bombarde is presumably of 16ft. pitch. This could be rather heavy in a small instrument. There is no quiet 8ft. reed, such as an Hautbois.

The G.O. is a little better, although the idea of a chamade reed on a small instrument which, whilst not original,* is probably unnecessary.

On the Positive Organ, there is a Tierce, but no Nazard. This is almost pointless. As another contributor has stated on a different thread, the Tierce was never used in French Classical music without the Nazard. It is of little use in any other repertoire without the companion Nazard - or at least a wide-scaled Quint. In addition, there is another 1ft. stop. One in such a small scheme is perhaps a luxury - two I consider to be wasteful, particularly since there is apparently no 2ft. stop on the Positif. Whilst the Quintadena will (or should) be voiced to accentuate the twelfth, this is not at all the same as a separate mutation rank at 2 2/3ft. pitch.

The Pedal Organ is simply too minimal, when the size of the other departments is taken into consideration, even with the dubious asset of the Récit Bombarde duplicated on this department.

Even if this scheme were carried-out with the services of a really good voicer, I do not think that it would either hang together convincingly, nor be particularly practical.


* There are innumberable Spanish organs of small size which contain (if that is the correct word) a loud chamade reed. Having played one or two examples in concert (usually after minimal rehearsal time), I remain entirely unconvinced of the perceived usefulness of such a rank.

To keep to a similar size, but spread over two claviers and pedals, I should prefer something along the following lines:

PEDAL ORGAN

Violone  (W) 16
Bourdon 16
Quint  (Std. W) 10 2/3
Violoncello (M) 8
Stopped Flute  (Ext.) 8
Bassoon  (W) 16
Great to Pedal
Swell to Pedal
Swell 4ft. to Pedal


GREAT ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Stopped Diapason 8
Principal 4
Harmonic Flute 4
Fifteenth 2
Cornet  (12-15-17: G20/C25) III *
Tremulant
Swell 16ft. to Great
Swell to Great
Swell 4ft. to Great


* This stop can be electrically divided to stop either at G20 or C25, in order that, if desired, it can be accompanied on its own clavier.

SWELL ORGAN

Open Diapason 8
Flauto Traverso 8
Viola da Gamba 8
Voix Célestes  (AA) 8
Gemshorn  (Conical) 4
Mixture  (15-19-22) III
Hautboy 8
Trumpet 8
Tremulant
Sub Octave
Octave

Pedal to Great Pistons
Great to Pedal Pistons


Tuning: equal temperament.

NOTES

The Violone could be of metal, with the lowest notes Haskelled, if necessary.
The Quint should be voiced as 'dull' as possible, and is intended to be used in conjunction with the Violone.
The G.O. Cornet would be of wide scale, voiced with good blending qualities. In addtition to providing a useful solo voice (in combination, of course), it would also help to compensate for the lack of a chorus reed.


#247
Quote from: leaf on June 28, 2011, 08:10:40 PM
I would like to back up David's post on Charterhouse organ. It was installed about 80 years ago and is excellent for supporting a lively chapel congregation; not ideal I agree as a recital instrument. It was last renovated 30 years ago by Harrison and probably needs a fair bit of rebuilding with updated electronics; some extra ranks could be added without changing its character. But to say this instrument has outlived its life is just wrong. St Marys Redcliffe is 100 years old and has just been rebuilt and the Royal Festival Hall is belatedly in the middle of a complete rebuild. Is anyone suggesting that organs once played by Bach should be stripped out and dumped?

If I may qualify some of your observations. The instrument at Saint Mary Redcliffe, Bristol has recently undergone a major restoration, not a rebuilding (which usually implies tonal alterations and or additions). The organ in the Royal Festival Hall has likewise been restored - the only alteration being that of the internal layout, which was largely re-configured, due to a decrease in the depth of the chamber. Rather than being 'belatedly in the middle of a complete rebuild', the greater part of it is still sitting, in storage, in Durham. Apparently, despite spending an enormous sum on restoring and upgrading the hall itself, it was not found possible to provide the full sum required to replace the entire pipe organ. I understand that this matter is now being addressed and that this landmark instrument should be heard in its complete state in the not-too-distant future.

However, I note your interesting comments with regard to the instrument at Charterhouse. I have neither seen nor heard this organ, so I cannot comment on whether or not the assessment of its present state is accurate. I would further agree that, given the standard vintage H&H stop-list and the 'house style' of the voicing, it is probably extremely good at leading congregational singing - providing, of course, that most of it is functionaing reasonably well.
#248
Organ registration / Re: Couplers on Pistons
July 11, 2011, 10:43:27 PM
I would agree with Jonathan Lane here; my preference is for the inter-departmental unsion couplers to be available on general pistons only.

On larger instruments, Harrisons used to provide two generals specifically for couplers (I have an idea that Willis III did something similar on his arguably over-supplied consoles). With regard to H&H, examples of this provision are the four clavier instruments in the cathedrals of Coventry and Exeter.

However, what I find even more irritating is the lack of a Great and Pedal Pistons coupler; fortunately this seems mostly confined to electronic organs - often of North American manufacture. Even allowing for the widespread U.S. habit of not normally setting divisional pistons in what might be termed 'crescendo order', I find this incomprehensible. I have never wished either to balance full G.O. with a solitary Pedal Bourdon (or vice versa) - nor have I a particular desire to have to stab at two pistons simultaneously, particularly when the Pedal and G.O. divisionals are placed on different keyslips.
#249
Thank you both for your welcome(s).

I am sorry it has taken me a while to reply - I am in the middle of 'exam season' and I have more work than I can shake a proverbial stick at - in any case, I am so busy, I have no time to be shaking sticks at anything....

I look forward to some stimulating (good-natured) sparring with NonPlayingAnorak - who might be surprised at some of my viewpoints and may even be stunned at some of my choices, were I to post a list of 'favourite English  cathedral organs I have played'.