Organ matters - Organs matter!

Flentrop (restored and enlarged by Paul Fritts) Organ, St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral, Seattle, WA...


http://www.saintmarks.org/Worship/Music/FlentropTechnical.php

This is the "big organ" 8)        http://www.saintmarks.org/Worship/Music/FlentropTechnical.php

and good recordings could be found here:

http://www.gothic-catalog.com/

Specifically:http://www.gothic-catalog.com/French_on_Flentrop_Melvin_Butler_p/lrcd-1013.htm

There is a selection from the album linked above which I recorded off-the-air.  Once I get the CD in my hot little hand it should come in handy for abusing home and vehicular audio equipment.  Much more fun than  :o Hip-Hop ;D  8)

And a recently posted Youtube  video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k8pfJozihc

 ;D  Finally heard an FM broadcast of a recording made of this instrument less than an hour ago...
I am playing back the Digital Audio Tape recording I made of that same broadcast ;D as I write this 8)

And I am going to add this to my list of Inspirational Instruments ;)  just as soon as I get around to it.

Now I REALLY want to hear this one "in the flesh".  I measured at least 4 seconds of reverberant decay in this particular recording and broadcast, and estimating the dynamic range at around 70dB after the obvious gain compression (analog judging by the noise) in the recording (and broadcast compression to boot)added to the couple  dB of broadcast path noise, which I could likely get rid of
by using a much more directive antenna than what I am using currently.  After all that it is still amazing to listen to  ;):o  and I now have a better recording than anything I have been able to dig up on the  Midmer-Losh op. 5550.

Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on May 05, 2010, 12:59:54 AM
I've got a recording of this organ and it sounds truly vile. And I think there was carpet on the floor. The lady organist - one Christa Rakich - totally failed to understand that you can't do Romantic/post-Romantic stuff on it.

All I can say now is I think you were unfortunate enough to obtain a truly vile recording of a really fine instrument :'( :'( :'(

Eric

Confuzzed? I fingered it out ;D

On the surface it doesn't seem to make sense but then I have observed that expression used here in the 'States countless times.   Generally when referring to an older individual whose knowledge and skill in a particular discipline exceeds that of anyone who currently follows in their footsteps...

As the "division of labor" becomes more apparent this concept of someone who has "forgotten more about 'x' than I'll ever know" may be occurring more frequently in certain disciplines as time marches on and the "body of knowledge", lifespans and dementia generally becomes greater in the following centuries.

Now, see, there you go making me feel guilty about not attending the concert :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

A couple questions... When was the recording made?  With What technology?  I ask as there have been renovations made in 1992 and 1995 to the organ... and considerable improvement in recording technology made since that time.

Having not been there myself I can only rely on "publicly available information"... The room is said to have an acoustic decay of at least 6 seconds... and described as being constructed of "unfinished concrete".  A capacity crowd could absorb this down I suppose...

Microphone placement is critical to the success of ANY audio recording made of anything, as well as the type of microphone and the equipment it feeds. 

And in particular the recording of pipe organs in their "natural environment" ;D   Great examples of
this discrepancy are evident in our esteemed moderator's recordings made at St. Maximin... The camera audio, although good for a consumer-grade video recorder, is not without its limitations... the digital recording made with much better microphones (and placement 8) being far better, although I fear the microphone placement favored the upperwork rather than the foundation stops
in my humble opinion... although this could be as much a function of the instrument registration as well :-\

David's description indicates  that full-organ (which would include drawing the 32' pitch stops?) tends to flatten the tuning of the upperwork...  not surprising.  My father demonstrated this
flattening of the tuning with insufficient wind  to great effect when I was a boy on our church instrument by holding down
a big chord with the blower shut off, then switched on the blower whilst holding the chord... Fun stuff!

   But I digress.... So I will digress even further... and apply this to the generation of "samples"
of pipe organs used in "digital equivalents" and say (nudge, nudge ;)  that the only way to properly
experience a pipe organ is to actually go and hear one for yourself ;D ;D ;D

Yes, I am "preaching to the choir" ;)  But if you aren't in the "choir" THIS MEANS YOU ;D ;D ;D

A bit late I see... Event was the weekend last :'(

The organ in question was the dual-temperament Pasi...

http://www.cathedralartsproject.org/Events.asp

Author and end of all things, and, from work
Now resting, blessed and hallowed the seventh Day,
As resting on that day from all his work;
But not in silence holy kept: the harp
Had work, and rested not; the solemn pipe
And dulcimer, all organs of sweet stop,
All sounds on fret by string or golden wire,
Tempered soft tunings, intermixed with voice
Choral or unison;

Quoted from the seventh book,  John Milton, Paradise Lost

Eric
KB7DQH

 ;D  8) 8) 8) ;D  Having seen, now I would like to hear ;)   as they are both beautiful to look at.  I imagine they sound as good as they look?   Wouldn't need to reinforce the floor for either of those instruments either ;D ;D ;D   and no worries about denting the pipework, although if left exposed to direct sunlight the white PVC tends to become brittle,  but most instruments of this type generally don't get left out in the yard for very long... and the UV weakening takes years under these conditions.  At least you found the pictures 8) 8) 8)

Eric
KB7DQH

Lots of ground to cover here... but I will address a couple of items...  Sounds like traditional cone tuning involves flaring or de-flaring the end of a pipe to "permanently" place it into tune, the cone essentially a tuning tool rather than a permanent fixture.  Hmmm... Gonna have to "think on" that a bit...

My other "avocation" is amateur radio, the most important part of a station being the antenna...
the one component of a station one can for the most part put together with basic hand and power tools and "common" components found in the local hardware store.  But so few amateur radio operators choose to spend the time doing this, instead purchasing at great expense manufactured equivalents.  I on the other hand have salvaged much aluminum tubing from disused manufactured examples and occasionally find raw material available at local industrial salvage yards, and until recently,  Boeing Company's surplus yard... and build my own.

  My personal collection has diameters as small as 8mm,
to as large as 100,  in lengths up to 3 meters, in a number of wall thicknesses, and most sizes have outside diameters which friction-fit into the inside diameter of the next. And I know other sizes are available without the necessity of custom manufacturing.  Especially when you get into the realm of irrigation plumbing then lengths and diameters get progressively larger and longer...

Unfortunately the M. P. Moeller Co. was dismemberd nearly 20 years ago, everything sold at auction.  Including components of organs not yet completed or delivered to the customers who ordered them... Sad.  Someone, somewhere may have the documentation...

David-- as far as being "completely mad" you are not the first person I have run across who has made that observation!  I have been correctly accused of  "thinking outside the box"... sometimes way out...
the results of which have been recognized by individuals as important as NASA's Director for the Interplanetary Network Directorate, William J. Weber... in a banquet presentation given at an internationally recognized gathering of microwave amateur radio enthusiasts which I attended.

Back to boxes and their size... Yes, a large-spec concert organ, e.g. C.B.  Fisk Op. 114 http://www.gothic-catalog.com/Seattle_WA_Benaroya_Hall_Fisk_organ_s/882.htmwould certainly even with compact design and construction fill a few 40 foot ISO containers, and draw a bit off the mains!  Even with electronic extensions one would likely require a similar volume of speaker cabinets and likely more power dissipated in the power amplifiers, but this would likely be required by amplified guitars and the like anyway...  Something like a 4/14 Wurlitzer spec (without the percussion and effects)  could be effectively  employed in all but the largest of sports venues I would think... and be compact enough
within our design criteria to need only two such containers to transport, and be built of modular units which could conveniently fit through the "stage doors" of smaller venues.

One of the more interesting concert venues here locally is the Gorge Amphitheater,  which I have not yet visited as most of the concerts given there are musically not to my taste and the facility is a casual half-day's drive from here.  But the "hypothetical transportable concert real pipe organ"
could pay a visit and play to a fairly large crowd in a decent acoustical environment, and survive to do it over again somewhere else...

Once Moeller op. 5819 gets installed this project could give the students at Oklahoma University something to think about...

Eric

An example of "block" construction can be found herehttp://www.rwgiangiulio.com/ ;)

Look for the documents concerning his Opus 2 continuo,  and "scale up" the pipework for 32 foot pitch.  Now fabricate these out of a super strong, moisture-resistant lightweight material... say foam-core carbon fiber, that is as long as the material isn't especially prone to expansion/shrinkage with extremes in temperature...  As it is used now extensively in the latest  aircraft designs (for which this material is being used to replace aluminum) it shows promise. 

Building the pipework in "unit blocks" as was done with that portable organ would certainly help with support...   Use of "wind conduction tubes" to separate windchest from pipework depending on configuration would add some flexibility to the packaging, and for the largest and heaviest of pipes the requirement of the chest (which is really nothing more than a distribution manifold full of valves) to support said pipework.

Aluminum is an interesting animal!  Joining pieces together with something other than an adhesive
requires an Oxygen-free environment... careful cleaning of pieces to be joined, etc... regardless of the method used.  Much stuff is mass-produced that requires complex fabrication but voicing organ pipes is a whole different can of worms...

One possible advantage in the pipe department is that Aluminum is already manufactured in a variety of diameters, lengths, thicknesses,  and alloys so much of the fabrication involving lead alloys would not be required, just  pull the stock and cut to the desired length.

Copper might offer  an alternative for the "mouth" portion of flue pipes, the rest could be done in Aluminum provided one joins the assembly carefully.  Maybe a zinc dust epoxy compound? Reinforce with a carbon-fiber woven tape?

Cone tuning?  I guess  I would  have to see an example?  I am imagining a cone placed with the pointed end facing into the pipe in question, fixed into position with a mechanism that would allow changing the distance between cone and end of pipe? Does inserting the cone raise or lower the resonant frequency of the pipe? (If "insertion" raises frequency this may explain its long-term reliability-- pipe gets longer and closer to the cone so "self-corrects" if warming, opposite if cooling) 

If so this opens up an interesting and fascinating possibility!  A variable-temperament organ 8)  Complete with the ability to tune from the console 8) 8) 8)  Using small stepper motors and digital control, once "initialized" this device would permit
changing the temperament at will... although one would have to wait while things adjusted themselves 8)

Now... The Quest for a "better" reed!  Wonder how an appropriate alloy of stainless steel would work...

See how much fun this is???

Eric

Find that used instrument you have always been looking for 8) 8) 8)http://www.organclearinghouse.com/index.php

http://www.bondorgans.com/news_skinner-FBC-Seattle.html

Their website is easy to navigate through, have a look around...

Eric

Organ to be removed to the Bond Organs shop facility so far as I know as of this writing.

Their websitehttp://www.bondorgans.com/news_skinner-FBC-Seattle.html
has more information.

The Aeolian-skinner is one of a very few instruments of that maker here in the Northwest US, and the fact that someone was able to give it a new home is good news!  However the Balcom and Vaughan
it is replacing would require the construction of new windchests to make it serviceable once again.

Stoplist of redundant organ can be found herehttp://www.bondorgans.com/PDF/SFB-stoplist-for-sale.pdf

Eric
KB7DQH

Watjen Concert Organ, Benaroya Hall, Seattle WA.  C.B. Fisk Opus 114

http://www.cbfisk.com/do/DisplayInstrumentAbout/instId/114

Free demonstration/recitals  http://www.seattlesymphony.org/benaroya/browse/eventdetail.aspx?id=2220

French Organ Classics

http://www.seattlesymphony.org/symphony/buy/single/production.aspx?id=7780&src=t&dateid=7780

Olivier Latry
http://www.seattlesymphony.org/symphony/buy/single/production.aspx?id=9386&src=t&dateid=9386

Specifications:http://www.gothic-catalog.com/Seattle_WA_Benaroya_Hall_Fisk_organ_s/882.htm

Eric

Friday, 7:30 PM

All Bach concert   

Kimberly Marshall, organist

on this organhttp://www.saintmarks.org/Worship/Music/FlentropTechnical.php
which one could argue began the "tracker action revival" here in the USA...

Eric
KB7DQH

Paul Fritts & Co.  http://www.frittsorgan.com/index.htm

Follow the following link...http://www.organclearinghouse.net/newsletter/index.php

Read the essay, note links at the bottom of the page, and have a look around...

Eric
KB7DQH

{Looks like the site changed domains :o so I have edited the link to reflect the change 8)
Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused...}

I had an opportunity to ask not the organist (who flew in from Ohio for this recital), the local active volcano behaving itself ::)  but the man who hours before the concert completed tuning the reeds 8)
and works for the builder... who was also in attendance.  He claims that, with the exception of Franck,
"you can play most anything"

A better accounting of the concert is available in the Concerts section of this forum...

Eric

If that second line needs filler, you could add the Organ Historical Societyhttp://organsociety.bsc.edu/ also...

Eric