Organ matters - Organs matter!

Inspirational instruments => Inspirational instruments => Topic started by: Pierre Lauwers on December 24, 2011, 12:52:02 PM

Title: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on December 24, 2011, 12:52:02 PM
I have had one chance, that is, having be able to hear many ancient organs.
Among them, it is often the "little things", often not in a pristine state, that have
much to tell.
I believe the art of voicing emerged in Italy during the Renaissance period. There are ancient
organs there like this one (A Renaissance organ originally, but rebuilt during the baroque period)
that deserve a very carefully listening, despite its modest look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2OmQZkKU8&feature=share&noredirect=1

(It was restored recently. I might come later with off-tune, scary ones !)

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on December 24, 2011, 02:09:16 PM
A 1927 Conacher that deserves quite carefull listening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNKOXG4ucuI

A Gustav Heinze "Octopod" -nothing above 4'- pneumatic action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVkeM9LNxgM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on December 24, 2011, 10:57:48 PM
Organ by Carlo Marzoli, 1926:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPHQgKacrM0&feature=feedwll

The Ripieno of this little post-romantic gem should remember the ones who know Arthur Harrison's work
of something else.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on December 25, 2011, 10:25:26 PM
The foundations and Oboe of the last (Italian) organ sound very much like the little Cavaillé-Coll at Farnborough Abbey - most interesting! Such a full-blooded sound for a quite small organ, too.

The uploader of the Conacher video is a member of this forum - Rob, if you're reading this, any chance of getting a recording of the Conacher without ciphering?  ;)
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on December 26, 2011, 11:18:49 AM
As I said, some surprises are to be expected here. Cyphers are, among others, things
that happen with organs when you visit them in Situ, and so it will be here.
The Marzoli organ, like a Cavaillé-Coll sometimes ? Well, the wind pressure is
54 milimètres throughout, thus about the half....


Here is another special case: We hear here à 8' Principale from the Domenico di Lorenzo da Lucca organ -1509 -1521 in the
Basilica SS Annunziata , Firenze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUf2YhuurzA

Note how the speech presents a clear, precise articulation, paired with mellowness. This is something
unique.

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on December 28, 2011, 02:46:25 PM
The next is one of my "pet" organs, the kind of which I traveled 700 kilometres for
on a Moped (Like Worcester, Aa-kerk Groningen, Saint-Maximin-la sainte Baume...),
and certainly the best I know for Bach.

The work is too-well known, but listen to this with the volume up, and enjoy the incredible colours,
with tierces round your head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8A07eFGB-c

Joachim Wagner was even grandest than the other Wagner.....

It might now be interesting to compare those coulors with those here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ-SzGu-OQk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


....more than 150 years later....
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on December 28, 2011, 04:18:41 PM
What a wonderful organ! The performance begins much too fast for my liking but it's good otherwise. Meanwhile, after much trawling, I found a collection of pictures of the church on the Wikimedia Commons and noticed that there is a large first-floor loft on the North side of the chancel... knowing how the Germans are developing a taste for English Romantic organs, and seeing as we seem to be getting rid of them... hmm, wonder if they might be interested in acquiring the Charterhouse H&H? It'd make an interesting and useful foil to the J. Wagner organ...
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on December 29, 2011, 07:59:55 AM
The Angermünde church would be quite richly equipped then ! Why not ?
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on December 30, 2011, 08:18:56 PM
Another pilgrinage: The Trost organ of Grossgöttern, Thuringia.
Played by an excellent organist, and a good quality recording with it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xblxas_cd-promo-helga-schauerte-integrale_music
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on January 07, 2012, 12:51:58 PM
An absolute gem, but you must be prepared to listen to it like an organ you visist in Situ
in a forgotten area: the condition of the organ is bad, and the last tuning must have occured
some years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsGwuCJztNQ&feature=share

The organ was built 1904 by Wegenstein, an austrian builder who established himself
towards 1880 in Timisoara.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 21, 2012, 10:13:18 PM
Some days ago we talked about Mixtures, and corroborating ones.
Here is an example of a 16th century organ which exemplifies to the extreme
wath "corroborating" is all about. The blend is so achieved that the result is
nothing short of a wall of sound -a true chorus-:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MiLj-ySrgI&feature=autoplay&list=ULdzHibGRyNME&playnext=1
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 25, 2012, 07:49:00 AM
A disturbing organ, a disturbing sound; had it been in the western part of Germany,
be sure it would have been demolished up to the last nail. But Fakt ist, this is what
J-S Bach had in his ears as a tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LT3A5x4qA

.....And to modern ears, it sounds off-tune, so that we need to re-educate ourselves
if we want to hear Bach in his true colors. Alternatively, we can imagine "Bach never
played organs he liked save while in the North" etc.

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 25, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 25, 2012, 07:49:00 AM
A disturbing organ, a disturbing sound; had it been in the western part of Germany,
be sure it would have been demolished up to the last nail. But Fakt ist, this is what
J-S Bach had in his ears as a tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LT3A5x4qA

.....And to modern ears, it sounds off-tune, so that we need to re-educate ourselves
if we want to hear Bach in his true colors. Alternatively, we can imagine "Bach never
played organs he liked save while in the North" etc.

Best wishes,
Pierre

=======================



J S Bach must have really hated this one then!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccwGb0_1R7A&feature=related


MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 25, 2012, 12:24:21 PM
Not really, he was content to criticize its tonal finish.
But again: the Mixture of this organ are modern. And they do sound
strangely modern, with very little blend, as if you could draw them alone....
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 25, 2012, 03:07:17 PM
It sounds very good to me, but then, I'm only an organist who plays Bach's music.

MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 26, 2012, 07:08:59 AM
Quote from: MusingMuso on April 25, 2012, 03:07:17 PM
It sounds very good to me, but then, I'm only an organist who plays Bach's music.

MM

Indeed it is "good", i.e. a beautiful organ that pleases our ears. This is one thing.
Here is an example of an excellent modern chorus up to Mixture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl8Mpt8oJNA

This is a completely endorsed, recognized as a neo-classical job by its -excellent- builder,
Bernard Dargassies of France.
And we like it -myself included- as an art creation of our time. We like to hear Bach played
that way on that kind of organ.
But our taste is one thing, the reality is another one; no ancient organ ever sounded that way.
To our modern ears, they are rather rough, bizzarely tuned, incredibly colorfull, awkward, strangely
voiced and regulated. We need a training to be able to listen to them, like you cannot jump into
a 1913 Rolls-Royce without some help if you only drove modern cars previously.

We need first to forget about our habits, tastes and training. Listen and see like a child, our critical
sense set to "OFF"; enter another world, another logic. We see that "Mixtur", that "Scharff" knob
(whose orthograph may vary widely!); but what does stay behind it ? Something you do not expect,
this is the only thing you can take for granted.
And then the adventure starts, bringing you towards new horizons !

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 26, 2012, 11:39:28 AM
Back to the reality !

A 1736 organ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM77Wa2zXlU&feature=channel&list=UL

Traversflöte (open, 8'), Viola di Gamba, Gemshorn; those organs had all such things - the first
the neo-baroque period condemned-. And a little Principal chorus afterwards, in the next
video which follows. Expect nothing like in the previous post.

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 26, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 26, 2012, 07:08:59 AM


We need first to forget about our habits, tastes and training. Listen and see like a child, our critical
sense set to "OFF"; enter another world, another logic. We see that "Mixtur", that "Scharff" knob
(whose orthograph may vary widely!); but what does stay behind it ? Something you do not expect,
this is the only thing you can take for granted.
And then the adventure starts, bringing you towards new horizons !

Best wishes,
Pierre


It is the MUSIC which should train our ear; not organs.

The fact that Bach's organ-music readily transcribes to the pedal harpsichord, the synthesiser (Moog), the Swingle Singers, Piano (eg: Busoni), Orchestra (Stokowski etc) and even the Bayern Accordian, furnishes us with a clue as to the nature of the music. It simply needs an instrument or combination of instruments which have a certain tonal integrity and vertical sonority, without need of special effects, specific colours or the musical equivalent to big guns. In a word; contrapuntal, or a dialogue among equals.

I can't help but think that Trost was a bit of a lunatic, but that's a personal view perhaps. What has yet to be revealed is what the organs Bach played regularly actually sounded like, and as we don't know and never will, it's a bit of a futile exercise.

Every organ is different, but the best share that sense of tonal integrity and vertical sonority, which we understand as "choruswork."

I've heard excellent Bach played on many diverse instruments....Hull City Hall, the Bavokerk, Alkmaar, Zwolle, Groningen, Blackburn Cathedral, St Bart's  Armley, Leeds Parish Church, Harvard (Busch Hall), the Walckers at Doesburg and Methuen (Boston, Mass), Hudderfield University....the list is large.

Some  of these organs pre-date Bach, others immediately post-date Bach; some are "classical" while others are more "romantic." None of them lack choruswork, vitality, nobility  or musical integrity.

What I do know, is that when I hear an organ with hugely prominent tierces, fairly unattractive reeds, experimental labial stops and a chorus ensemble which just doesn't work, it isn't my ear which needs re-training. My ear knows only too well that the organ is the work of a tonal amateur.

Indeed, the Trost "experiment" cannot, I believe, be considered a success. It has all the unfortunate side-effects of an instrument built to provide specific novelty sounds, which finds a certain resonance in the master-works of Robert Hope-Jones, where tonal integrity was sacrificed on the altar of mismatched solo colours, extreme gravity and colossal basses.


Were I the organist at Walterhausen, I think I would have to install a very violent tremulant and a revolving statue of Marlene Dietrich; playing nothing but excerpts from Johnny Kander's "Cabaret."

MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 26, 2012, 09:39:24 PM
I think we might probably have understood that you do not like Trost organs, dear MM.
It is your right !
But this kind of sound was not really Trost's experiment, as there are many others organs in Thuringia
that share precisely this style -by the way, did you notice the last one above was not a Trost ?-
So you like Bach's music, but not the organs he heard and played 99% of his life's time.
It is certainly not a problem, but it should be held in mind !
(Perhaps Bach would have liked Wurlitzers after all, who knows ?)

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: pcnd5584 on April 26, 2012, 10:03:09 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 25, 2012, 07:49:00 AM
A disturbing organ, a disturbing sound; had it been in the western part of Germany,
be sure it would have been demolished up to the last nail. But Fakt ist, this is what
J-S Bach had in his ears as a tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44LT3A5x4qA

.....And to modern ears, it sounds off-tune, so that we need to re-educate ourselves
if we want to hear Bach in his true colors. Alternatively, we can imagine "Bach never
played organs he liked save while in the North" etc.

Best wishes,
Pierre

I have to admit I did indeed find this disturbing. Not simply the tuning, temperament or the continuous tierces - but also the fact that the chorale melody was virtually indistinguishable. I am sorry, but I cannot believe that this was the sound which Bach had in mind when he wrote this piece.

I much prefer the recording from Nôtre-Dame de Paris, by Philippe  Léfébvre (and a third hand for the cantus firmus), recorded before the organ was rebuilt. It is a truly wonderful sound *. Personally, I do not think that this piece works with just one player - either the chorale tune (in the upper pedal part) is not prominent enough - or the lower pedal part is too prominent. Even with a pedal divide facility it would not wokr, since one would have to change the divide point in a number of places whilst playing.



* The counterpoint was played on the plenum with a gentle sub-unison rank, with the chorale being played in octaves on the Boisseau chamades, with the addition of a smaller chorus, including a high-pitched Cymbale. This description may appear odd, but the sound is both majestic and thrilling - and a world away from the confused reedy jangle of the recording above.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: pcnd5584 on April 26, 2012, 10:20:51 PM
Quote from: MusingMuso on April 26, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
... What I do know, is that when I hear an organ with hugely prominent tierces, fairly unattractive reeds, experimental labial stops and a chorus ensemble which just doesn't work, it isn't my ear which needs re-training. My ear knows only too well that the organ is the work of a tonal amateur.

Indeed, the Trost "experiment" cannot, I believe, be considered a success. It has all the unfortunate side-effects of an instrument built to provide specific novelty sounds, which finds a certain resonance in the master-works of Robert Hope-Jones, where tonal integrity was sacrificed on the altar of mismatched solo colours, extreme gravity and colossal basses.

Without wishing to initiate a pitched battle, I would agree with this viewpoint to an extent. I do not know whether Trost was a tonal amateur - I do know that, if he were alive and trading today, there is nothing on this earth which would induce me to employ him to build an organ. The recordings I have heard of his instruments sound both eccentric and unattractive to my ears.

Quote from: MusingMuso on April 26, 2012, 01:01:35 PM
Were I the organist at Walterhausen, I think I would have to install a very violent tremulant and a revolving statue of Marlene Dietrich; playing nothing but excerpts from Johnny Kander's "Cabaret."

MM

Alternatively, one could contact a well-spoken young man with a north-country accent who, in the company of an older gentleman of military bearing, would come and rebuild the organ, scrapping much of its fearsome tonalities and installing new chorus work, including nine new ranks of mixtures on the G.O. ....
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on April 26, 2012, 11:29:21 PM
Has anyone here heard the Trost organ of the Altenburgschlosskapell? My experience of it is confined to YouTube but I think it's a clearer sound than Walterhausen, while being notable for its warmth and the power of its Pedal department. It is well-known as Bach's personal favourite.

Personally, I'll take Masaaki Suzuki's recordings on the Joachim Wagner organ at Angermuende... just sublime.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 27, 2012, 07:40:06 AM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 26, 2012, 09:39:24 PM
I think we might probably have understood that you do not like Trost organs, dear MM.
It is your right !
But this kind of sound was not really Trost's experiment, as there are many others organs in Thuringia
that share precisely this style -by the way, did you notice the last one above was not a Trost ?-
So you like Bach's music, but not the organs he heard and played 99% of his life's time.
It is certainly not a problem, but it should be held in mind !
(Perhaps Bach would have liked Wurlitzers after all, who knows ?)
Best wishes,
Pierre


Pierre's knowledge  of instruments is obviously restricted to organs, because the statement highlighted in red is not so absurd as it may seem.

What do we know of the Wurlitzer company?

They didn't just build pipe-organs and eventually electronics....Oh no!

If you had a Stradivarius violin, and an auctioneer found a Wurlitzer label inside the body certifying the authenticity and quality of the violin, it would be accepted at the major auction houses as proof of origin and maker. In fact, Wurlitzer were a huge organisation musically, and the music shop was famous across the world.

More interetsingly, the Wurlitzer roots in music manufacture and retailing extend back to Germany, as early as the 16th century, when they made violins of good quality.

It is therefore entirely possible that Bach would know of Wurlitzer violins, and may even have played one, but of course, the idea could never be anything other than speculation.

Wurlitzer was a fascinating company with an amazing, international reputation.

MM

Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 27, 2012, 07:59:42 AM
Of course, that sentence was a provocative one, MM. Like some of yours maybe ?

A little rehersal with an original 1737 organ without too many tierces ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbI3Uww6HHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=2sfQSrISI-o

The Specifications is interesting, with five 8' foundation flue stops on the first manual,
plus a celeste on the Rückpositiv. Typically baroque !
And no, this one is not a Trost. And even not in Thuringia:

http://www.instrument-und-kontext.de/ik-orgel/sueddt/maihingen_disposition.php

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 27, 2012, 02:45:15 PM

We end up with a dilemma. How often have I heard the phrase, "If only Bach had known an organ like this!"

The phrase is usually restricted to older gentlemen who play organs built by Arthur Harrison.

I'm as quilty as they I suppose, but the problem with "historical research" is that it teaches us almost nothing relevant to the music, and may even mislead.

From what I know of Bach, he was constantly interested in new instruments, which at the time, were undergoing considerable development; as with music notation etc.

So when I suggest that Bach would never have heard his own music on the best organs, I am in danger of straying into the area of "projection," in the possibly misguided assumptiuon that Bach would have preferred the "best organs" to those he knew and played regularly in his native Thuringia.

But is this any different from those who would poroject the same belief concerning Bach and Arthur Harrison?

I believe it would be different, because there would probably be some degree of concesus, if one asked, "What are the finest organs for Bach?

You've only got to watch the faces of those who listen to great performances of Bach at the Bavokerk or Alkmaar; (perhaps evena fine Hinsz or the F C Schnitger instrument at Zwolle).  The organs may not strictly be "Bach organs" as such, but there is something utterly compelling and "right" in the sounds of these instruments, which doesn't require further elaboration. People are stirred and moved by what they hear, (given a good performer), and that should be enough for us to-day.

I think that is different to the Arthur Harrison comparison, because with later baroque instruments, we are comparing like for like  in concept and execution, without all the tonal and mechanical developments which belong to a very different age and style of music-making.

I could go on to describe the best romantic organs as being those in which the classical sense of tonal architecture is preserved, which would apply very much to T C Lewis, Thomas Hill and even, with a few reservations, to the organs of Father Willis and others .

That isn't such an alarming prospect as it may seem.

MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on April 27, 2012, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 27, 2012, 07:59:42 AM
An original 1737 organ without too many tierces:

http://www.instrument-und-kontext.de/ik-orgel/sueddt/maihingen_disposition.php

Are those front-pipes in the side-flats (Pedal pipes?) made of pure rust?!  :o
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 27, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
It's probably arsenic in the lead reacting with the atmosphere.

MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Andrew Dewar on April 27, 2012, 05:07:44 PM
The pedal pipes are wooden and were originally covered by a thin layer of tin. Traces of this can still be seen today.

Regards,

Andy
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 27, 2012, 05:14:56 PM
Welcome, Mr Dewar ! I appreciate highly the videos you posted recently on Youtube,
both the playing and the historical interest of the instruments, the romantic ones as well as
the baroque ones.
This one here is rather special. Built "cheaply", with those wooden facade pipes....And the absence
of any access into the organ -which is probably a main reason for its unaltered state-.
But what for a "cheapo"!!!!!

http://www.instrument-und-kontext.de/ik-orgel/sueddt/maihingen_text.php
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 12:04:42 AM
If you can't get into the organ, how on earth are you supposed to tune it?  :o
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 02:11:48 AM
Quote from: MusingMuso on April 27, 2012, 02:45:15 PMI could describe the best romantic organs as being those in which the classical sense of tonal architecture is preserved, which would apply very much to T C Lewis, Thomas Hill and even, with a few reservations, to the organs of Father Willis and others.

Presumably the same applies to the great Yorkshire firms, Brindley & Foster, Isaac Abbott, Wordsworth & Maskell, Keates, even some Binns organs... but is it really so far from a Lewis to certain examples of Arthur Harrison's work? From Southwark to Newcastle City Hall via the Michell & Thynne at Tewkesbury... NCH has a very full Great diapason chorus, deliberately modelled on that at the Schulze at Armley, starting with a 16ft Geigen, working up through 3x8ft O.D., Octave 4', Octave Quint 2 2/3', Superoctave 2' to a big 5-rank mixture (15.19.22.26.29). There's also a flute chorus - 16' Double Stopped Diapason, 8' Hohl Flute, 4ft Wald Flute.

The Swell chorus, designed not to be subservient to the Great, starts at 8ft (the lone 16' being a Quintaton), going through a 4ft Geigen Principal and a Fifteenth to another five-rank mixture (12.19.22.26.29). There's also an 8ft Rohr Gedeckt and 4ft Rohr Flute to go with the Quintaton. There's a chorus of sorts on the Choir too - Contra Dulciana 16', OD8 or Echo Salicional 8', Salicet 2', Mixture 15.19.22 - the last a feature characteristic of Lewis organs. Even the Pedal has a five-rank mixture (12.15.17.19.22) to go with its otherwise plain 32-16-8 spec.

Sadly, all this is academic as none of it is playable. I'm working on a group which I hope can change that - forgive the somewhat off-topic plug/plea, but I really need as much support as possible, so I'd be much obliged if all forum members who're on Facebook (beside the four who have already joined - thank you so much, Peter, Pierre, Eric & Sean) would hit the "Like" button on the following page and take part in the poll pinned to the top left: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Friends-of-the-Newcastle-City-Hall-Organ/272899419467146 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Friends-of-the-Newcastle-City-Hall-Organ/272899419467146)
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 28, 2012, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: Andrew Dewar on April 27, 2012, 05:07:44 PM
The pedal pipes are wooden and were originally covered by a thin layer of tin. Traces of this can still be seen today.

Regards,

Andy




Thanks for the information Andrew....it makes sense.

I wonder what happened to the tin?

Almost certainly, the tin and wood would react together badly; the tin staining the wood and the acids in the wood encouraging "tin pest."

I'm going from memory, but tin is usually mnined where there is also lead, and the chemical make-up of what would be fairly impure tin would include lead, possibly traces of silver, arsenic and all manner of nasties.

Only the best (Cornish) tin seems to have lasted well, and the 32ft front at Haarlem is the perfect example.

MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 28, 2012, 08:52:02 AM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 12:04:42 AM
If you can't get into the organ, how on earth are you supposed to tune it?  :o

There are no reed stops in this organ.

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: revtonynewnham on April 28, 2012, 12:39:43 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 28, 2012, 08:52:02 AM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 28, 2012, 12:04:42 AM
If you can't get into the organ, how on earth are you supposed to tune it?  :o

There are no reed stops in this organ.

Best wishes,
Pierre

Hi

And it's well known that cone tuned pipework (or pipes cut to exact length) will stand in tune for several years.  The Wingfield organ (one of the Early English Organ Project reconstructions of a Tudor organ) has - for reasons of portability - pipes cut to exact length.  The tuning is was just beginning to shift very slightly after 10 years - and a Spurden-Rutt organ that I used to play regularly never needed the open metal pipes tuning in the 5 years that I knew it - just the reed and an occasional note on the wooden pipes.

Every Blessing

Tony
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 28, 2012, 03:35:49 PM
A new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akUyqTIw-u0

Thanks, Mr Dewar !

Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: pcnd5584 on April 28, 2012, 05:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pierre Lauwers on April 28, 2012, 03:35:49 PM
A new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akUyqTIw-u0

Thanks, Mr Dewar !

Pierre

Excellent playing.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on April 28, 2012, 08:42:05 PM
Presumably the same applies to the great Yorkshire firms, Brindley & Foster, Isaac Abbott, Wordsworth & Maskell, Keates, even some Binns organs... but is it really so far from a Lewis to certain examples of Arthur Harrison's work? From Southwark to Newcastle City Hall via the Michell & Thynne at Tewkesbury... NCH has a very full Great diapason chorus, deliberately modelled on that at the Schulze at Armley, starting with a 16ft Geigen, working up through 3x8ft O.D., Octave 4', Octave Quint 2 2/3', Superoctave 2' to a big 5-rank mixture (15.19.22.26.29). There's also a flute chorus - 16' Double Stopped Diapason, 8' Hohl Flute, 4ft Wald Flute.  


Apart from Keates, I have known or played organs built by all the others, and I can tell you that they are VERY different animals to the work of Arthur Harrison. More than that, without realising it at the time, I was organist at a church which marked, very precisely, the change in the Harrison style from what they had been doing in the 1880's, and what they started doing after perhaps 1910 or so. The organ in question was that, (now destroyed), at Holy Trinity, Keighley, West Yorkshire, where a typical "old" Harrison two manual, was enlarged to include what was, in effect, an orchestral division placed above the Swell, but labelled "Choir Organ." That manual included some quite dreadful orchestral reeds of no great quality, a fat Claribel Flute, a characterless Dulciana, a very undistinguished String, a Lieblich Flute (I think) at 4ft, and an Harmonic Picollo at 2ft; the reeds only being enclosed. I suspect that the voicing was done by Casson, but who ever did it, it was a move towards the later, orchestral style.

The voicing and scaling of the individual registers were a complete mismatch with the rest of the instrument, and I don't think I EVER used the third manual other than as a book-shelf. It did not belnd with anything; not even with itself, and was probably one of the  most unmusical sounds I've ever come across. Interestingly, the Swell Organ was typical of Victorian organ-building in the North of England, but very subdued indeed....a hang-over from the Schulze influence I suspect. The Great Organ was good....very good...with a fine Diapason chorus and a decent low-pressure reed, but not at all like the work of Arthur Harrison.

When compared with other instruments from other builders, the old Harrison was actually less distinguished than the best from all the other companies mentioned, but of course, there was that wonderful Harrison build-quality.

Now to suggest that Harrison and Schulze are somehow linked musically, is to stretch belief somewhat. Yes, you will find the same outright power and many of the features of Schulze at Newcastle City Hall, but what you will not hear is the canned-lightning effect of open-toe voicing, modest nicking and massive  straight-line scaling.The Schulze at Armley  almost makes one's hair stand on end; especially when that famous V rank Mixture is added for the final chords, which has the effect of almost doubling the power of the Great, due to the fact that the Mixture is right at the front of the organ rather than at the back of the Great windchest.

Lewis copied this style, but not slavishly; quite happy to temper the wilder elements slightly in the interests of English "refinement," but without much compromise in the champagne quality of the full choruses, which still bubble with vitality and harmonic interest. (Part of that harmonic richness also come from the fact that Schulze and Lewis Diapasons are set "slow and interesting" in their intonation: almost string-like in several respects, and especially so at close-quarters. This is a radically different approach to what Harrison did later, where leathered lips, increased wind-pressures and meticulous voicing could be refined into the typical Harrison chorus, Arthur Harrison's scaling was quite different, and in the case of the bigger Diapasons, so were the wind-pressures.  It produced a more controlled, refined element of power, but make no mistake, Arthur Harrison Great choruses are very loud indeed, but with only limited harmonic development in the individual ranks. That again, was far removed from what Fr Willis did, with his narrow scales and heavy pressures.


On the basis that a few sounds are worth a thousands words, here are a few comparisons:-

First, the Schulze at  Armley     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inWMWpXBeEY    The "Kir Royale" of German organs.

Next, the T C Lewis at Ashton-under-Lyne    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sheru4hrgeE   More Moet Chandon and angostura with a splash of Cognac. Just wait for that Plein-Jeu to be drawn!

Father Henry Willis   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdMJH1SZOBg&feature=related    No 3 London Dry Gin; powerful and made to a unique family recipe.

Arthus Harrison     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCdrt5Bc-oY    Finest reserve Port and a King Edward Imperial. The "Gentleman's organ."

I think I would have to say that the one big leap forward from Schulze and the provincial builders who followed his example, was the dramatic  increase in the power of later Swell organs; first with the reeds akin to those of Father Henry Willis and then with the more extended chorus-work; usually including a 5 rks quint mixture on the larger instruments.

MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on April 30, 2012, 03:25:02 AM
One must observe that NCH is not a typical Arthur Harrison organ - nor, if the voicing of its Orchestral department was as bad as you say, was Holy Trinity Keighley. At NCH, the Great chorus (build on the Open Diapason No2, or so I'm told) is very bold, its scaling copied pipe-for-pipe from Armley (according to greater experts than I), all the pipe toes wide open and only modest nicking used. The five-rank quint Mixture is also right at the front, just behind the facade - the Harmonics (of the usual four-rank variety) is much further back, along with the usual 16-8-4 Trombas (which are, I'm told, much brighter and fierier than the Arthur Harrison norm).

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the individual instruments to which you refer - I've heard Armley in recordings and the St Mary Redcliffe Elgar "Imperial March" I've listened to many times. However...

I do know the Lewis in Southwark's Anglican Cathedral quite well. I would certainly agree with you in your assessment of "the champagne quality of the full choruses, which still bubble with vitality and harmonic interest". My own metaphor for the experience of standing in the South Transept at Southwark, near the case, as a florid toccata is played on Full Great to mixture (the sharpest four of the Armley five-ranker), is one of standing under a crashing waterfall of the greatest, most beautiful purity and clarity. Much nicer than any narrow-scale tin-dominated modern chorus, in my opinion. It is a pity that Jonathan Scott could not better demonstrate the wonderful Ashton organ: the Boellmann is staggeringly banal (and infuriatingly common - I HATE it with a passion!) and he also takes it a good 50% faster than it should be.

Father Willis' work I know principally through the organ he built in 1889 for Saint Augustine's Highbury: it was the subject of an article in a 1936 edition of The Organ, but was moved to Saint Mary's Ewell in Surrey in 1975, where its similar 1860s Willis predecessor (rebuilt by Norman & Beard in 1903) had been destroyed by fire two years previously. This instrument embodies the classic sound of a late Father Willis - scorching chorus reeds (those on the Great right at the front, just behind the facade), perhaps smoother than those of an 1860s Willis but still astonishing in their power and fire, those wonderful, cheerfully-jangling tierce mixtures capping them (thankfully moderated in the treble compared to some more strident earlier examples), the bold, singing Great diapason chorus topped by a very bright Fifteenth and underpinned by a large-scaled Double Open, the gorgeous open and harmonic flutes, acid-drop Lieblichs, flawless orchestral reeds, sensuous strings (those on the Swell perhaps excessively gentle in tone, the big-scaled Choir Gamba at the other extreme), a Vox Humana that just melts in a dark chocolatey stream out of the Swell box, growling smoothly but malevolently in the bass - the only disappointments in the whole organ are the Swell 16ft and 8ft Hautboys (milder and quieter than one might expect or want) and the Choir Dulciana, utterly anodyne and too small in scale to make an effective undulant against the Gamba. The Pedal has only 16ft and 8ft stops, but is effective nevertheless - a mild, even-speaking Bourdon (with independent partner Bass Flute), a gorgeous, purring Violone (metal, I think - might have been one of the facade ranks), a truly Herculean Open Wood at the back alongside the Bourdon and Bass Flute, plus a fabulous Ophicleide at the front, just behind the Great Double Open, which adds a shattering cap to the tutti.

With regard to the video of the ex-Birkenhead Willis in the Netherlands: the piece on the video is John Cook's Fanfare. There is a recording of it on the Salisbury organ on YouTube, too - though this is not it. Nor is it the Willis we see in the video - neither the Birkenhead church whence it came nor the home from which it was recently removed were blessed with much reverberation. I consider it likely one of the following four instruments, two in Liverpool: that city's Anglican cathedral or St George's Hall, or, both in London, the Alexandra Palace or Saint Paul's Cathedral. If the last, it seems we don't hear the big Dome Tubas: it's either the Chancel Tubas on the Solo manual or it's the pre-2008 Dome chorus reeds, which were Tubas in all but name (and marked as such on the resonators), smooth and rounded in tone.

My experience of Arthur Harrison organs is confined to three specific instruments. The first that I encountered was that in the huge Giles Gilbert Scott-designed chapel at Charterhouse School, near Godalming, Surrey, which I believe was also our host's introduction to the organ. Get down there before they scrap it - there are enough good organs in the area to make for a rewarding organ crawl, including that of Godalming PC. My recollections are dim, being now over fifteen years old (and I am not quite twenty-one), but I do recall some very orchestral sounds as well as very great power in the diapasons and reeds. As a school chapel noise machine, it was remarkably economical considering its effectiveness: vast decibels from only thirty-six stops. I ought to try to get to hear it again.

One H&H instrument in whose company I have spent many hours is that of All Saints, Woodham, near Woking: a very typical 1928 H&H of three manuals and twenty-three stops. Its synoptic specification is like this: Ped 16.16.8.8, Ch 8.8.4.8, Gt Bdn 16.8.8.Fl8.4.2 2/3.2., Sw 8.8.8.8.4.III (15.19.22.).16.8. plus octave coupler (73 note chest) and unison off, Oboe 8' by piston - very predictable, Durham churned out dozens if not hundreds of instruments with exactly (or very nearly so) this specification. However, it is saved from ignominy by the sheer quality of its execution: the build quality is typical H&H (I'm not sure if it would even notice a bomb going off beside it) and the voicing so utterly perfect as to almost rob it of character (a matter which, as in the world of cars, is a subject of much debate - is it a good thing or is it just a term used to paper over poor execution?) - its is a rich sound, the Pedal department noticeably weighty, the Great chorus quite bright (particularly if coupled to Swell to mixture, especially if the octave coupler is drawn), the Swell Trumpet fairly fiery and quite powerful, the other two reeds rich, colourful and moderately powerful (both can be moderated with expression pedals), the strings (two on the Swell, one on the Choir) all gorgeous, the Great Large Open a nice, big, warm stop: the flutes, however, are a bit bland and not up to Willis standards. Nothing on the whole organ is on more than 4" w.p. or so I recall. What is most interesting about this instrument is the letter framed and mounted on its side, from one Ronald W. Reagan of 1600, Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington NW20500, District of Columbia (an address at which, incidentally, can be found a famous house designed by an architect whose first ever building is home to our host!): it is dated some time in 1988 and is written in very friendly, personal terms, "Nancy and I" giving their very best wishes to the church and all those involved in the organ's restoration and encloses a cheque (of which I think a copy is preserved at the foot of the letter) for $1000 (equivalent to $1900 today) from personal funds.

I've also spent quite a lot of time listening to the Westminster Abbey organ and got to tinker around on it a little on one occasion. Suffice to say, I don't like it much. Very rich, very powerful, quite bright but there's just something missing. Technically, I think it's a better organ than the Willis III at the nearby RC Cathedral, but that organ is ultimately more bold in its choruses and injects more raw excitement into its tutti. With the Abbey, I hear it thundering away in a big piece and I wonder when the player is going to add the big Pedal reeds. The piece ends and I realise they were on already - but they're so smooth in tone as to rob excitement. They're useful for more than the huge Bombardes at the Cathedral, I'm sure, but why can't there be another 32/16 to really roar at you? Plus the Bombarde division is pretty pointless - almost all of it is borrowed, so it really doesn't add much to liturgical accompaniment (unlike its counterpart at St Paul's) and those brassy trumpets are just awful, not to mention a total misfit with the rest of the organ. I'd much rather they used the top manual and stop jamb space to reconnect the Hill Celestial division, which still sits in the South Transept Triforium, awaiting an end to its so-far 76-year-long silence.

I'm afraid your alcoholic-beverage metaphors are somewhat meaningless to me - if they referred to ciders or single-malt whiskies I'd understand! My recommendations on that front (in terms of what's widely available in supermarkets etc) are a Somerset scrumpy from Thatchers and an excellent single malt called the Macallan. One day I plan to go to Somerset and, without the use of a car, somehow do a big crawl of organs, pubs and cider farms, sample as many different ciders as possible without harming more than my liver...
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: pcnd5584 on May 01, 2012, 11:45:12 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on April 30, 2012, 03:25:02 AM
... I've also spent quite a lot of time listening to the Westminster Abbey organ and got to tinker around on it a little on one occasion. Suffice to say, I don't like it much. Very rich, very powerful, quite bright but there's just something missing. ...  Plus the Bombarde division is pretty pointless - almost all of it is borrowed, so it really doesn't add much to liturgical accompaniment (unlike its counterpart at St Paul's) and those brassy trumpets are just awful, not to mention a total misfit with the rest of the organ. I'd much rather they used the top manual and stop jamb space to reconnect the Hill Celestial division, which still sits in the South Transept Triforium, awaiting an end to its so-far 76-year-long silence. ...

An interesting post.

Just to pick up on one point: the Bombarde Organ at Westminster Abbey. For the record, 'alomst all of it' is not borrowed - the three  G.O. Posaunes and the Solo Tuba Mirabilis are playable from this division., the rest is entirely straight - and separate. This includes foundations at 16ft., 8ft., 4ft. and 2ft, a IV - VI rank Mixture, a Grand Cornet V and three (straight) chorus reeds, viz: Bombarde 16ft., Trumpet 8ft. and Clarion 4ft.

You also appear to have mis-understood its true function. It is not supposed to add anything to liturgical accompaniment - it is primarily for leading a large congregation in the Nave - when the brassy trumpets are jsut the thing to cut trhough everything else and give a clear, incisive lead. In order to do this, it is, by its very nature, likely to stand apart from the rest of this instrument.

However, I do agree regarding the 32ft. reed. A larger, more Bombarde-like (i.e., free-toned - but not a free reed, naturally) stop would be ideal.

The Celestial Organ - I fear that, at twenty-three stops (including couplers), there would not be room anywhere on the jambs for this section, however interesting it might be to have it re-connected. Stop-keys on this console would look (and indeed did look) tacky.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: AnOrganCornucopia on May 02, 2012, 02:24:56 AM
Ah, quite right too. When I said liturgical accompaniment, I meant precisely what you say, leading a large congregation. The brassy trumpets don't so much give a clear, incisive lead as take an angle-grinder to the West end wall... they're HORRIBLE.

Looking on the NPOR, it's also apparent how much else has been spoiled about the Abbey organ - Large Open Diapason removed (ALWAYS a BAD THING), Choir organ mucked about, split in two with a sort of Positiv department that stands out like a sore thumb, Trombas revoiced and renamed but the Harmonics retained... this organ needs an historic restoration back to its original 1937 ethos. Build a new console for it, too, with six manuals and enough stop-jamb space to reconnect the Celestial (which is only 17 stops, including a split 16ft Dulciana, a spare slide and two percussions) - or make it a floating department on the existing console, there should be stop-jamb space when all the neoclassical fripperies have been thrown in the Thames (preferably with Conservative Party front bench ministers and News International executives tied to or shoved inside the pipes)... they would hopefully form not so much a floating department as a sinking one!
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: pcnd5584 on May 02, 2012, 04:00:16 PM
Quote from: AnOrganCornucopia on May 02, 2012, 02:24:56 AM
Ah, quite right too. When I said liturgical accompaniment, I meant precisely what you say, leading a large congregation. The brassy trumpets don't so much give a clear, incisive lead as take an angle-grinder to the West end wall... they're HORRIBLE.

Looking on the NPOR, it's also apparent how much else has been spoiled about the Abbey organ - Large Open Diapason removed (ALWAYS a BAD THING), Choir organ mucked about, split in two with a sort of Positiv department that stands out like a sore thumb, Trombas revoiced and renamed but the Harmonics retained... this organ needs an historic restoration back to its original 1937 ethos. Build a new console for it, too, with six manuals and enough stop-jamb space to reconnect the Celestial (which is only 17 stops, including a split 16ft, a spare slide and two percussions) - or make it a floating department on the existing console, there should be stop-jamb space when all the neoclassical fripperies have been thrown in the Thames (preferably with Conservative Party front bench ministers and News International executives tied to or shoved inside the pipes)...

So you do not like it much, then....?

The success of this instrument is largely dependant on whether or not one views an eclectic organ as necessarily a bad thing. If this is the case, then one would indeed have to attempt to restore it to something approaching its 1937 incarnation. Whilst possibly solving one problem, it might simply create a few new ones. For a start, the G.O. chorus, having been re-balanced, would have to be 'un-balanced' again, as it were, with the re-instatement of the Large Open Diapason - which, I think I am right in saying, was not actually regarded as part of the chorus, even by Arthur Harrison. Incidentally, at least the pipes are still in the building (under the floor of the Choir Organ).

With regard to the G.O. revoiced reeds, although the 'Harmonics' was retained, the existing quint Mixture was, I think, re-balanced and was augmented with a new Sharp Mixture III.

I know one who played this instrument almost daily for about ten years, and who has an extremely high regard for it. The person concerned is also extremely choosy about the type of instrument to be played and thus does not give praise lightly.

I have only played it once, but I thought that it was basically good - although still a little on the tubby side in a few places.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on May 02, 2012, 05:02:34 PM
I recall the Abbey organ from as far back as 1964.

I hated it then, and I hate it now!

MM
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on May 03, 2012, 11:58:19 PM
With mention of the Northern England organ-builders inspired by the work of Schulze, I came across the following Youtube video, which wasn;t there the last time I checked.

This is possibly the magnum opus of the Brindley & Foster company, and I was quite surprised by the sound of it, even if the sound recording is not top drawer quality.

Considering the date, 1901, when even Brindley eased themselves towards the orchestral style, there is still a lot of Schulze influence in the sound of this instrument in Pietermaritzburg City Hall, Kwazulu-Natal, South Africa.

I find it quite fascinating!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olksP13myns&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaXnWtg88IU&feature=channel&list=UL

Here is the sound of a Keates organ in Ireland; another revelation:-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg5Mjq0Zbng
And of course, the splendidly restored Binns organ at Rochdale Town Hall:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNZwgNlhmG8

Unofrtunately, I cannot find anything to represent arguably the best of them all, Isaac Abbott.


MM

PS: The moral of the above misinformation, is never to to write anything when you've just suffered a fall and you cannot move terribly well. (I lander on my back like a beetle). This organ is actually by Keates of Canada, and not by Keates of Sheffield, and as for "Ireland" it is actually in Illinois.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on May 05, 2012, 09:29:11 AM
Zella Mehlis ! Here is another typical thuringian baroque organ, built by a dedicate Rommel,
which provides us with a sophisticated Bach-sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqyJiQmtcX0

Info and Specifications here:

http://www.evangelische-kirche-zella-mehlis.de/home/Kirche%20Zella%20St.%20Blasii.html
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on May 09, 2012, 11:36:02 PM
Ina recent post under this heading, I mentioned the Magnum Opus of Brindley & Foster, which is the organ in the Town Hall at Pietermaritzburg, South Africa.

I've done a little further research about this magnificent instrument, and discovered that B & F actually built two organs for this hall; the first (in 1891) being destroyed in a fire in 1898 which also extensively damaged the hall. The replacement instrument dates from 1901, which co-incides with the start of B & F's venture into a midly orchestral style, but never one dominated by high pressure choruses and still retaining many of the "German" qualities associated with the pipe-voicing of the company.

Naturally, as with all later B & F instruments, the action was pneumatic throughout until 1974, when the organ was slightly enlarged by the firm of Cooper, Gill & Tomkins (Pty) and electrified, using a stop-key console provided by J W Walker & Sons (Ruislip).

What I find interesting about the enlargment and fairly limited tonal-changes, is the way the new upperwork blends particularly well with the 1901 pipework, which shouldn't really come as a great surprise, in view of the company's German inspired pedigree.

However, it does rather contradict my original comment that this organ was pure Brindley & Foster working in the Schulze tradition, from which,
(by 1901), they had started to ease away as a result of changing musical tastes. The organ in its present guise, is clearly a successful blend of old and new. Interestingly, the use of 15" wg for the Solo Tuba Mirabilis, (as it was originally labelled), must have been quite radical departure from the usual B & F style, but whether the reed has been revoiced since, I cannot say.

However, I have found the current and old specifications, which make for interesting reading; the upperwork expanded to what would probably have found approval with Charles Brindley and reversing the less fortunate trends of the period around the turn of the 19th century when the organ was built.

MM


Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: David Drinkell on May 11, 2012, 01:21:52 AM
Quote from: MusingMuso on May 09, 2012, 11:36:02 PM
Ina recent post under this heading, I mentioned the Magnum Opus of Brindley & Foster, which is the organ in the Town Hall at Pietermaritzburg, South Africa....

....Naturally, as with all later B & F instruments, the action was pneumatic throughout until 1974, when the organ was slightly enlarged by the firm of Cooper, Gill & Tomkins (Pty) and electrified, using a stop-key console provided by J W Walker & Sons (Ruislip).

MM

I may be completely wrong on this, but I believe that a further connection with a worthy firm of organ-builders may be made, in that Charles Hele (of the West Country family) moved to South Africa some time after Walkers' absorbed Hele & Son and I think he is still going strong there.  The Walker console may be due to his influence.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: MusingMuso on May 11, 2012, 11:41:28 AM
You may well be right David, but the amount of readily available information about organs, organists and organ-builders in South Africa is quite limited.

Beyond the fact that another Brindley & Foster organ was radically altered and re-voiced by Willis, at Durban town-hall, I know very little; though I gather that in organ-building terms, there is quite a strong Hill, Norman & Beard legacy in evidence.

Best,

MM

Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: David Drinkell on May 12, 2012, 12:13:45 AM
Willis IV did a lot of work in South Africa and I think Henry V settled there as a clergyman.  The rebuild at Johannesburg Town Hall remains controversial.  apparently HWIV personally sawed the 32' flue in half to use as a sub bourdon.  'He did some funny things!', said the person (now a very distinguished organ builder himself) who related this.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on June 06, 2012, 11:45:52 AM
Another milestone is certainly the 1905 Gebrüder Link organ in Giengen an der Brenz (DE),
with full pneumatic action. Here a 36 minutes long video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlX7YwEAYlY&feature=plcp

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on June 07, 2012, 10:43:03 AM
Surprisingly good, this 2004 Schantz in Arizona:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDIrrvfTTys&feature=share

Could be a Milestone !

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: SilberMann on December 27, 2012, 09:30:34 PM
Hi there everyone!

I am new to the forum, and I am from South Africa. I am an organist studying music currently heading towards my second year. I have a great passion for the organ. If there is any questions that anyone would like to be answered with regard to organs in south africa, especially the great british organs, feel free to contact me, I will gladly assist as far as my capabilities goes, and I might even go further to enquire about a certain organ if you would need!

Regards
Stefan
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on February 03, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
Let's go to Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpLnq-HaNPM

This organ dates 1913, and has fully pneumatic action. It still has the traditionnal
Ripieno, but on one slide. You cannot miss it in this video, where it coexists
with the late romantic foundation work.

Specifications, pictures and others videos:
http://www.arteorganisticanelmonferrato.it/giarole.htm

The organ is 100 years old this year, and it should get international recognition.
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on February 08, 2013, 08:49:28 PM
Gerhard Walcker just discovered the Opus 1367 from Oscar Walcker, in original
condition, in Lettonia. Pictures and two sound files:

http://www.walcker.com/opus/1000_1999/1367-wenden-johanniskirche-latvia.html

The organ dates from 1907, has 41 stops, 3 manuals and Pedal.
The first sound file (Forte) has quite much to tell !!!
(The second , Tutti, somewhat less because the bellows are ruined and are so in need
of a restoration).

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on February 15, 2013, 11:32:24 AM
An interesting pneumatic organ, not restored, off-tune, with probably many
holes in the winding. But mind the quick, sharp response of the action,
paired with a typical articulation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbNyosfSUik

The Specifications:

http://organy.art.pl/instrumenty.php?instr_id=251

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on February 16, 2013, 01:11:26 PM
As anyone knows, the Thuringia, during the 18th century,
was a musical desert. As a result, the local builders commited
such awkward things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJqBSnTiUJ0

(Volckland organ, 1767)

Note the short reverberation time, which is very common in this aera.

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on March 04, 2013, 08:52:27 AM
The 1894 Dalstein & Härpfer organ of St-Martin Hayingen/ Hayange, Lorraine/ Lothringen,
France (near to the luxembourgish border and the town of Thionville) is a splendid
example of a synthesis style betwwen France and Germany. By no way is it an ecclectical approach, rather a personnal reinterpretation of both.
This organ is a Masterpiece in that the acoustics of the church -a design copied on the one from the Trinité church in Paris- is rather cavernous. In spite of that, there is no mudiness, no roaring basses which engulfs the trebles, in few words, each pipe holds exactly its place in the tonal balance:

http://efwalcker.de/09%20Titel%2009%203.mp3
(Philippe Lefèbvre plays Liszt)

The organ has an excellent pneumatic action and cone wind-chests (Kegelladen).

Picture and Specifications:

http://pipeorgan.fr/Site%20JBG/orgues/contrat%20d'entretiens/fiches%20entretiens/hayange.pdf

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on March 06, 2013, 11:50:23 AM
A new video displays the dynamic range of the Gebrüder Link organ of Giengen an der Brenz (DE), a very rare example of an intact late-romantic german instrument
(pneumatic action, cone-chests):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ483jXdExM

The pianissimo of this organ is very notable -ever wondered why bother with soft stops?-

Best wishes
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on March 15, 2013, 05:51:50 PM
Another one: A little Walcker organ from about 1895-1905, somewhere
in Poland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3ifIwksUx4

This organ has "pneumatischer Taschenladen", i.e. a pneumatic action upon membrane windchests (vertical "pocket" pouches).
In the beginning, we hear a Double-mouthed stop with its typical, deep attacks, with an Aeoline.
The Crescendo is topped by the tierce mixture.

Specifications and picture:
http://www.organy.art.pl/instrumenty.php?instr_id=2201

Best wishes,
Peter
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on March 31, 2013, 09:10:04 AM
The Rochester, after Casparini organ, and its Principal chorus which resembles
quite closely to what I heard in many places in eastern Germany (Thuringia):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wbQD-tkxLM

Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: KB7DQH on March 31, 2013, 10:40:43 AM
I have heard local broadcasts of this instrument on the radio, and even pieces of music written specifically for this instrument on the occasion of its inauguration, which I have favorited on my Youtube channel ;D  In fact a couple days ago I randomly selected a program I recorded "off-air" of this very piece of music (3-3-33 by Stephen Kennedy) 

A great deal of effort has been put into the study of the "original" in Lithuania from which this "exact replica" was constructed, so restoration of the original should be no problem from a technical standpoint as the entire thing was duplicated elsewhere using original construction techniques.  Interestingly enough some of the local organ builders (Paul Fritts and Martin Pasi) were involved in the construction of the "Craighead-Saunders" organ, as part of this "Go-Art" project... 

Your observation that "its Principal chorus which resembles quite closely to what I heard in many places in Eastern Germany (Thuringia)" serves to validate the importance of the success of this project...  The organ students at the Eastman School of Music then have an opportunity to experience an "authentic" example...

Eric
KB7DQH
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: KB7DQH on March 31, 2013, 10:47:57 AM
http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,1000.0.html (http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,1000.0.html)
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 01, 2013, 07:36:01 PM
Indeed, Eric; I'd add that this organ might well have signed the end
of the Neo-baroque period, i.e., a "baroque" style that is not a true
baroque one.
Now we can build credible organ after a variety of styles. It is to be hoped
that Go-art and others continue to gather the knowledge about those styles
we need to preserve them all, and have them represented worldwide, in just
the quantity necessary to "train our ears", to learn to appreciate and enjoy them
all. And to get rid of the changing fashions that have been so destructive in the past
-up to nearly the present-.

I add an example.
Here is a reed stop that is the opposite to the british late-romantic ones: a Dulzaina
"en chamade":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F0Zvt11TrM

....And it is exactly as precious and worthwhile.

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 02, 2013, 07:42:03 PM
Here is a 1916 pneumatic organ by Göbel of Königsberg, Eastern Prussia
(Today Kaliningrad):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1dTMEbJz8w&list=UUjYTAOLN-_FADeqYnqZUc-Q&index=8

(Do not miss the second half of the video, which displays incredebly beaudiful
foundation stops).
Mr Poplawsky is one of the best improvisators in Poland)

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: Pierre Lauwers on April 09, 2013, 11:44:29 AM
Riga Cathedral -the giant Walcker organ- displays here wonderfully
the free-reed Clarinet and the traditionnal Walcker Mixtures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3F42C4mZIM

Best wishes,
Pierre
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: David Pinnegar on June 10, 2013, 06:16:54 PM
Hi!

I posted a video a little while ago which I thought it unfair to talk too openly about but the relevant issues have been well touched upon in the comments that have been posted on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=15TY3YwpTKs

Being a traditionalist I bemoan the reordering of churches, the doing away with pews, the bringing of an instrument out of the chancel, of obscuring windows, but perhaps the instrument at Kingston Parish Church by Frobenius does indeed provide a versatility for the repertoire and perhaps it might involve congregations in actually singing hymns engaging with music as part of the nave rather than merely broadcasting from on high in the chancel.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Organs that train our ears
Post by: revtonynewnham on June 11, 2013, 10:03:23 AM
Hi

I think the West Gallery position is far better than any chancel chapel - and there's no real reason (and many advantages) to having the choir on the main axis of the building as well.

Maybe the typical UK Free Church organ location (centre front) is equally good acoustically, and given good casework, also looks good - but it does rather detract the focus of attention away from where it should be - and has led to at least one comment "I see you worship a god of many voices".

For those who don't know, the theory of the arrangements in most "traditional" free churches is the baptismal pool (for churches that practice believers' baptism), then above that, usually on a low platform, the communion table, and above that again, the pulpit - the central point of the service being regarded as the "preaching of the word".  A pipe organ dominating that does rather destroy the symbolism!

Every Blessing

Tony