How to remove an organ??

[melhadfield]

Hi
Looking for some advice from the very knowledgeable on this forum.
I have a project which may soon involve removal, packing and shipping of a pipe organ from a Welsh Chapel.
How feasible is it to attempt such a removal myself, with an assistant?
Would I be better advised to enlist the help of proffessionals?
I have had a peek and the the task does look complicated but not overly daunting, am I likely to damage something which will cost a fortune to have repaired later?
Any advice will be both appreciated and seriously listened to.
Regards
Mel

[makemoreandmore]

Hi Mel - where is this organ? Happy to lend a hand if I'm able  ;D

[melhadfield]

Hi
It's in a Welsh Chapel near Pontardawe South Wales.
It's not confirmed yet but the sale is moving forward.
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Cheers
Mel

[makemoreandmore]

There are far superior organs awaiting the skip, and since the owner has this on eBay at a starting price of £10,000 ,unless you have a sentimental attachment to Conacher (fine though his instruments are) , I can't imagine who would part with that kind of money for it.

Within easy reach of Pontardawe, a fine 3m 1930's Hill, Norman and Beard lies rotting, not to mention a 2m Hill, a 3m Hill (totally original), a 3m Bevington, 3@ 2m Norman and Beards and that is only the start...

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

The first thing to do is to remove the pipes and, ideally, put them in trays. Don't stand them on their feet (point of air entry) or you tend to close the hole and need revoicing. Also don't handle around the mouth as bending anything there can put them off speech. Whilst others recommend otherwise, as an amateur, have a stylus to scratch into the pipes a row letter and a pipe number from the left and this enables passing pipes on rebuilding to be done easily by amateurs - have a logical system and stick to it. Photograph how everything fits together section by section.

It's not rocket science.

Best wishes

David P

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

Pretty well all the pipes I've seen already have a note name and rank designation marked on them - not always easy to see though if there's a lot of dirt!  You do need to just check that the note names etc ar correct - modifications sometimes mean that there are 21 sets of markings - or maybe they're just plain wrong!

Every Blessing

Tony

[melhadfield]

Many thanks David, very useful advice, do you know of any company that may supply packing racks for the pipes?
I was also wondering how much space the organ will take up once packed, would it fit comfortably into a container say of either 10' or 20' for shipping?
I am aware there are many other organs being disposed of but this one is in fine working condition, so no harm in trying as regards finding a good home then.
Thanks for the input also Tony, hopefully the pipes will have some ident on them but as David says, can only help reassembly if they have a more logical marking put on them for the rebuild.
What about the actual woodwork, pedal board, couples etc? anything difficult there?
Cheers
Mel

[David Pinnegar]

Dear Mel

Thanks for your comments. Professional organ builder's designation of pipe rank and note identification is fine and may be obvious to an experienced organ person, but setting out a matrix, as copying a painting by squares, enables merely mechanically competant volunteers to complete a job.

Where are you packing it up to go to?

If a shipping container, then Robert Buhagiar in Malta should be able to advise.

Best wishes

David P

[melhadfield]

Hi David
Totally agree, probably going to USA.

[makemoreandmore]

Hi Mel

Colin Peacock at Renatus (01237 471045)  might be able to kit you out with pipetrays, although they are usually made of MDF so would not cope with getting wet on the voyage. Friends of mine had their entire possessions ruined when being containered over to USA. You can knock them up yourself, of course, and there are plans available on the internet.

May I suggest that you consider engaging the services of a professional to dismantle the organ though. You will almost certainly damage the upperwork simply by handling it, and this must be wrapped with the greatest of care if mouths, ears etc are not to be spoiled. The cost of repairs will almost certainly be greater than hiring someone to do this work.

Gary Owens looks after the organ in the Parish Church in Pontardawe. Why not consider hiring him for a day? You would then get all the specialist care necessary, leaving you (and me, if you need me) to hump all the other things around.

As regards space, much will depend on the spec of the organ. Even if it doesn't have a 16' Open Wood, the facade Diapasons may be 11 or 12' tall.  Ideally these should be crated up to avoid damage, otherwise any dents will need to be professionally removed to ensure a perfect finish.

The Swell Box is likely to be pretty hefty and only come apart as complete sides. This again means that it will take up space. The action to the Swell Pedal could be 15' long, it all depends on what you have there. Every item that you dispense with as being impractical to fit into the container must be replaced and so runs up costs the other end.

Then you must consider that the soundboards, reservoirs and any independent chests are very heavy, and to avoid the ends of the sliders getting snapped off, the topboards will need to be unscrewed and the sliders removed. These are then extremely fragile, being as long as the soundboards, but only a couple of inches wide, and maybe 1/8" thick.

All this means that you really need to do your homework and account for how every single part will be securely crated, down to the glass doors, lead conveyancing.

Finally, I would seriously urge you to consider that lovely as this organ is, judge with your head, rather than your heart if it is worth buying it for £10,000 when there are other organs available in equally as good condition where the church would gladly give the organ away in the knowledge that it will go to a good home. That is how we acquired our Norman and Beard, and there are others still available on a similar basis.

As I mentioned before, there is a delightful 2m tracker Peter Conacher, admittedly a little smaller, where the organ builder has removed it already, and can be rebuild it  in the UK for a cost of £14,000 plus VAT and accomodation etc.

Kind regards

Neil

[melhadfield]

Hi Neil
That's wonderful information and certainly food for thought, it is actually me that is selling the organ, I'm not buying it, the customer is in all probability going to be in the USA but negotiations are ongoing at the moment, hence my barrage of questions in preparation should the sale go ahead.
It won't be £10k or anywhere near, just enough to make it all worthwhile to find this organ a good home.
If things get firmed up I will certainly contact a proffessional and the guy in Pontardawe sounds very close.
The pedal board is described as Bourdon 30 notes 16' so I guess a 20' container will be minimum.
I'll enquire about the pipe racks also.
Thanks again.
Mel

[matt h]

Hi.

A Bourdon is a stopped pipe, meaning it is only actually 8' in length.
The pipes in the facade are probably the longest.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Matt

[AnOrganCornucopia]

I'm no expert on Welsh geography (I can find the major towns and cities on the map but that's about it) but Pontardawe isn't too far from St Michael's Abertillery - a bit over forty miles as it turns out. Might be worth contacting Paul Derrett and the Rev.Patrick Coleman there, they know a thing or two about moving organs... another builder in much the same area as Gary Owens (Welsh Marches) is Nicholson - they have recently built new organs in the cathedrals in Newport and Llandaff, so also have ongoing business in South Wales. They are one of the oldest firms left in England, having been in business since the 1840s.  (Inappropriate comments removed - Moderator)

[melhadfield]

Thanks Matt, I'm becoming Organ literate as the days go by, wondered what a Bourdon was, so now I know.
Cheers
Mel

[revtonynewnham]

IOC

Why Paul Derret?  he lives in Hull, not Wales!

[David Pinnegar]

they know a thing or two about moving organs...

??? I thought that there were some comments on this board on another thread complaining that there had been a lack of volunteers in that particular instance . . . ?

More seriously, Neil, your comments about chests and removing the top boards and looking after the sliders are particularly pertinent. Long time since I had done it . . . so omitted from my initial advice on pipes. However, in view of the distance and expense of shipping, I agree totally that it's really worth getting a competant builder who has packed for shipping before to do the job. The builder or other purchaser will thank you seriously for a job well done.

On the matter of price, it's a really admirable idea to set a good price in order for instruments to find a good home, even if one does not charge it and gives it to them. It then means that the instrument is not a candidate merely for the scrap merchants or bastardisation into single rank midi house curiosities . . .

Best wishes

David P

[melhadfield]

"On the matter of price, it's a really admirable idea to set a good price in order for instruments to find a good home, even if one does not charge it and gives it to them. It then means that the instrument is not a candidate merely for the scrap merchants or bastardisation into single rank midi house curiosities . . . "
Entirely agree David, it's just about impossible to make any money out of old organs, the main object is to find a good home, but as you say, these instruments do have a real value and should be treated as such.

Mel

[melhadfield]

As a follow up, I am receiving a lot of interest and am very hopeful of finding a new home for this organ.
However, I have been asked if the organ is a mechanical (tracker action) or tubular pneumatic? How do I tell the difference?
Also, this organ was not listed in the NPOR but I have sent all the detail to them and they are in the process of registering it.
Mel

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

If it's pneumatic you'll find a load of tubes going everywhere around the back of the instrument but if it's tracker you'll find lots of carefully positioned sets of levers linking the keys to the pallet pull-downs underneath the pipes. Normally if you lift the music desk panel above the manuals (keyboards) you'll get to the first stage of the action and see either long sticks and levers, or tubes.

Best wishes

David P

[melhadfield]

Many thanks David, looks like another visit to South Wales then.
Mel