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Avoiding closing churches, world war and total annihilation.

Started by David Pinnegar, December 28, 2015, 07:45:09 AM

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David Pinnegar

Ha!  ;) :) In that case I'm an Atheist who believes in God! :o

I'm an Atheist who believes in the Creator, our Father, our origins, where we came from, which creates.

"Who made the universe?" is as daft a question as "What is Time?" but unfortunately many people give silly answers to silly questions and then take them seriously.

Asking "What made the universe" becomes so much more interesting, because it would not exist other than for the plus between 1 and 1 that gives one life. Matter adding to matter to create more sophisticated matter . . . more useful stuff of the process useful to the process.

It's the plus that is the Creator between matter, between numbers, and between us.

It's the plus that is God, the operand - that which does, that which creates.

All the mumbo-jumbo we hear is solved when we cease to look at the material realm, objects, stuff, numbers, things we can see, and intead look into the realm of "plus" which does, which creates, without which we and nothing would be here, which is all powerful, everywhere and which we cannot see. We can only see it by what it does.

So as Atheists we can believe in the Creator. The process is much more than a person can achieve, much greater, and overcomes all the silly differences between us, if we will ourselves create and do the work of the creator.

In order to understand what happens in our churches we have to understand those meanings that are of the "plus", of God, of the Creator that put together to create, and those meanings which are of men who have not understood and are of the primitive view of an anthropomorphism, not as a description (as the description can work as far as it goes and as far as it's understood to be limited) but as a being.

The stuff that is created, works together, is intelligent. The stuff that doesn't work together doesn't exist. This is why we see an intelligence within or behind the universe that we might describe as the mind of God.

In fact the mantra "As above so below" operates. Just as the universe might not be born by an intelligence and yet displays an intelligence, acquiring the intelligence by operating "The Process" of creation, neither are the neurons of a brain innately born as intelligent until they make the connexion process between them that gives them an intelligence as a brain, as they put the "plus" between them in patterns of creation and know how to think.

It's possible therefore in my view to talk about the Universe and all that we experience in language that all can understand. The differences between seeing the Creator as an intelligence external to the universe and seeing the Creator internal to the Universe, as a process that is innately intelligent giving the Universe an internal intelligence, becomes rather irrelevant. Is our own intelligence inside or outside our brains? Is our intelligence derived from elsewhere or merely the manner in which our neurons can connect, if we use them? The Universe as its own creation as a product of its own intelligence is akin to our DNA which is created by its own intelligence, the code, which in every species is reproduced. The codes that are more useful create more than those which are less useful.

The magic that the Church has for all, if only the Church could see it, is that Jesus had an innate inner understanding of the process of Creation and taught wisdom which can enlighten us in how to use it.

The magic is in what Jesus taught about the Creator and not in what the Church after the Council of Nicea taught about Jesus.

How can we operate the Creator process between all mankind? What part can the Church play in that?

Best wishes

David P


Some very interesting points.

Looking at the matter of the creation of life on Earth, I can understand how this came about without the need for a sentient 'creator'.  Scientists have proposed very believable concepts of how life can be created from simple chemicals under the right circumstances, and from simple life forms can evolve more complex systems and, eventually, us.

As for how the entire universe was created, I have heard nothing convincing other than the theory of the 'big bang' and, even so, I don't understand anything about how that was created/started.  Perhaps there was a 'creator' who was responsible!  I'm sure that no-one knows.
A missionary from Yorkshire to the primitive people of Lancashire

Paul Duffy

I want to try to answer David's question as best I can. I do not know if there is a solution to church closures, but I at least understand why we stand on the brink of a third world war:

•"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion...We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

That was written in a letter dated 15th August 1871 by a man called Albert Pike. I think you'll agree that Mr Pike is getting his wishes fulfilled. And that is because the organisation to whom he belonged have actually brought about two world wars through staged events and hoaxes, and are now in the process of doing so again.

I stated yesterday that I was appalled by the events in Cologne. However, I now understand that these sex attacks were co-ordinated. Some eyewitness reports say there were 'men in suits' giving out orders to the attackers. In my opinion, the people behind this are the same gang that Pike belonged to. They call themselves 'The Family', but most people know them as the Illuminati. Forget the Dan Brown hokum, these people are far more clever, secretive and intelligent to go running around Rome branding cardinals. Their task is to create and foment as much negativity and division as possible through stagecraft or co-ordination. There are suggestions that they were also behind the recent attacks in Paris: the 'goings-on' in the Casa Nostra café are strange to say the least.

'The Family' are trying to drag us all into a third world war. And unfortunately, because of human nature and the 'collective unconscious', they are going to succeed. And they know it. They have been dropping subtle hints amid film and media, and because of Jung's collective unconscious they have gone largely unnoticed amongst the public. The 23rd Sept 2015 was a special day to them. It marked the start of their 'operations'.

But don't just take my word on all this. Have a look at this link from 2010:

For those with an open mind, I also ask them to look at this:

I know the latter may be difficult for many to swallow, but I believe it is genuine because it deals with the same themes I have just outlined. Sadly, it has been largely discredited by the Catholic Church, which is a shame. Nevertheless, I still believe it to be true.

Best wishes,

David Pinnegar

Dear Paul

THANK YOU for your most adventurously wider spirit than many might admit to.

The only defence to these things is to break down division. But many want to hold on to their divided identities that for them give them identity, as the comfort of their personal teddy bears.

Being led down the paths of division is falling prey to exactly what the Pikists intend.

The worship of Mohammed and the worship of Jesus, rather than the understandings of what they were teaching about the Creator, has come forward and divides. We have to shake away those divisions.

If anyone's interested I'll write at greater length - but I think there is a solution in our churches.

Services could continue to follow the style of worship that is most comfortable to them - but for many that is before the Victorian period of world corruption started - and so I wiould plump for Book of Common Prayer or Latin. This provides a framework, only that, but a powerful statement of not losing anything, retaining our culture but . . . being open.

Within that format one might take the First Lesson from the five Gospels - I include Thomas - with specific focus on what Jesus taught about The Creator, and without focus on what the Nicean Council's church wanted to teach us about Jesus. We have to escape the trap of the specific teacher-worship that divides the world and focus only on what creates. We can also include the first four books of the Old Testament, together with Psalms, the book of Deuteronomy to be excluded. We can invite people of others faiths to share with us and celebrate the work of the Creator and ask them to take from their texts for the Second Lesson teachings from their texts that match the teachings from ours. In this way we can celebrate the work of the creator together, inviting and sharing.

One would not have any priest nor sermon, but any member of the congregation might be invited to speak for no more than three minutes.

Just as one has choir practices, one might invite speakers or readers (to be drawn by lot or a rotation of volunteers) to speaking practice so that no electronic amplification is necessary. The Church has traditionally been a place of training for other skills beyond its walls. The church has to be seen to be relevant, attendance of which brings benefit in life beyond.

One could also have evensong with a meaningful "symbolic supper" possibly preceding a communal larger meal, although it might stand alone.

Around tables, one might be seated, pass bread, and wine in quantities no larger than a sherry glass, and some red juice such as pomegranate for those not wanting alcohol. Bread has to be in a form that breaks nicely. One might introduce the symbolism by a reading of Jesus "Who are my brothers and sisters?"* "those who hear 'my father's words' - the idea of the Creator - and do it" followed by the request by Jesus that we do it in honour of him and that by eating of the idea of the sons and daughters of the Creator and doing the work of the Creator we are all the more empowered to create as sons and daughters of the Creator.

In my view this would be a powerful antidote against the forces of division ranged against us, in which many feel merely helpless and bystanders hoping that holding on to our teddy bears will protect us.

This is a blueprint that could spread, bringing all together, sharing with the faithful of other paths which illuminate creation, bringing welcome between peoples and communities, spreading widely in England and possibly to Germany, Belgium, France and Denmark where not by division but by coming together all in belief of Creation as a process can stand firm together, and educate and illuminate others who haven't yet understood and are being manipulated.

It's the best inoculation against manipulation.

We lose nothing but gain the world.

Best wishes

David P

* There is interesting distinction indicating meddlings with translation, in some "Who are my mother and my brothers?"

David Pinnegar

I've tried in the jottings above to put together a formula which preserves our essentially christian traditions, culture and teachings but brings relevance and interest in today's world where people have turned their back on separatists, fed on the sop of materialism and preferring atheism to silly uncreative manmade battles about manmade issues in the misunderstood name of God, YaHWeH, the sound of the breath of life that gives life, life that we all share, all who breathe but which many ignore.

Do other people have other suggestions preserving the heritage and yet bringing interest from all in a world where no village is separate from the whole world and all cultures?

Paul - the reference you mention as hard to swallow is interesting. Whilst I don't take specific account of it as it echoes the voices of many before in similar vein but not always wholly on track, it speaks the sentiments that to a large degree perhaps all of all faiths can appreciate and share in the sentiment:
QuoteChristians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and for all those faiths, deduced by the fallible mind of mankind – I call on you all, one last time, to open your eyes to the True Word of God the God that sent you the Word through the prophets. The Truth was written and documented in the Holy Word of the Scriptures, which no man can amend, change or attempt to twist to his own interpretation. There is only one God. So put down your weapons, open your eyes and follow Me to eternal life.

This is interesting in avoiding saying that any texts are wrong but that interpretations are not always divinely guided.

It's simply a matter of finding the + between one and another to make something more useful.

Perhaps it's time for us as followers of the Almighty, to find that + that links us as Christians to all others who understand the Plus to life that the Almighty can bring. By doing so the relevance of churches will be retained as well as the most enjoyable heritage of our organs.

Best wishes

David P


"Perhaps it's time for us as followers of the Almighty, to find that + that links us as Christians to all others who understand the Plus to life that the Almighty can bring."

Did anyone see Adrian Chiles' documentary on BBC2 last night, entitled "My Mediterranean" - part 3?   He was looking at religious worship in various parts of the region and came to exactly this conclusion.   It was excellent.
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

David Pinnegar

Dear Nicolette

Thanks so much for bringing this to attention - is it on YouTube?

Many thanks

Best wishes

David P


Yes, David.  (It did say part 2, now I remember!)

Best wishes,
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

Paul Duffy


Your viewpoint on these matters suggests you a reaching a higher level of consciousness. According to people who are often cynically termed 'New Age' by the mainstream, all of us on this planet, animal and human alike, are going through a transitional period in which we will gradually come to understand our connection with God and each other. We are all a PART of God, not apart from God. According to the 'New Agers', we are each a divine spark encased in a body. If we can look at it that way, issues of gender, sexual orientation and religious observance become irrelevant. I think that is perhaps the point which yourself and Mr Chiles are putting forward.

Best wishes,

David Pinnegar

Dear Paul

I think you might have reached somewhere way before - but it really comes from being somewhat down to earth and looking at things from a matter of common sense. That's why Mr C's documentary is so powerful. It's an inevitable understanding to which all must come when we realise that we are all neighbours, in the true sense of Jesus' teaching. And that's the important thing, for those friends who count themselves to be Christians, that coming to the wider understanding that I believe Jesus taught, beyond the teaching of the Church about Jesus, that we can lose nothing and gain the world by taking on board what he taught.

The power of Jesus' teachings is that he taught in parable. His teachings were an analogue . . . and those that don't read the bible in that way lose the dimension in which He taught.

It's really a matter of the Garden of Eden. The climbing of the tree of knowledge shows us that the Eden of which we are told to believe as paradise is in fact a prison, in which we are kept as children with the understanding of animals. This is literally the state of innocence of Adam and Eve.

In these threads I've probably mentioned this before, but the Bible, as the Book of Knowledge at the foot of the tree, incriminates us. As soon as we pick up the book, before we get to Chapter 2, we have started to climb the Tree of Knowledge.

Just as we expect our kids to grow up, get out of the parental house and make their own and better way in the world than we have succeeded in doing, and in fact expect them to have an adulthood in which they can look after us as our parents when we are incapacitated in old age, "God" expects all of us worthy of being called human to grow up in our spiritual development and find the religions in which we are confined as sects, limiting, and not the Paradise of the Garden of Eden but in fact its prison.

It's then that the walls of Paradise fall down, the shackles fall away and we have to go out into the world and grow our own mental crops of God among all the philosophical thorns and thistles that hold us back.

We then, in the wilderness beyond, cry as lone voices.

The paucity of participation in matters of belief here, which should be of far wider interest than merely the quantum of interest in organs, is testimony to the power of the walls of paradise, and the lack of desire to grow crops grappling with the thorns and thistles beyond.

The trouble is that in the absence of willingness to grow crops, people inside the walls of false paradise are starving. The food is running out as the gardens of paradise with too too much sun and too little water don't build bridges with the gardens of paradise flooded by too much across which to trade, let alone share. Some die by flood whilst the others die by fire.

The process of creation, God, expects us to grow up, and hear the Father's words, and do them.

I urge all to go down their local Charity Shop's bin and see what the material world wastes, all stuff created from the stuff of this planet, and thrown away for compost. You'll find all sorts of stuff even of value thrown in that bin - and - God's in that bin too. When you've got everything out and sorted it into an adjacent bin - and argued with the local police who haven't got enough drunks to arrest on a Saturday night who want to arrest you instead - the God that we find there in the bottom of that bin has got to be the God that both you and I and everyone else created can see, and that all and all religions can see too. You and I shouldn't have to consult a medium or a psychic or metaphysical majick man to ask "Can I see God down there in the bottom of the bin?" Our Creator is that which is there for all to see . . . and it's as simple as the PLUS that joins one and another, and everything else.

It might be invisible, but it's more powerful than the mere words in any book, and more than the confines of any religion that tries to claim it for its own.

As soon as churches do the "+" (addition) and work the work of "x" (multiplication), and show the mosques how to do likewise and all the other houses of God, then our traditions can be celebrated and organs will sing.

The whole of "creation" adds up to what's created within.

Best wishes

David P

David Pinnegar

In view of announced today it's more vital than ever for us as Christians to examine what role we play in the mind of the Creator. Increasingly as we are, we're looking to be irrelevant, and compost with the rest of the planet.

Rural churches which hold rural communities together are under threat as are their organs, and choirs, and if the CoE looks holistically in the role that the Creator has for the 21st century church in the light of the above, there is no need for the impending destruction to happen.

The obliteration will be as wholesale and universal as that of the Reformation, and even more destructive. But it can be avoided.

Best wishes

David P

Paul Duffy

David, I don't know why you keep banging on about churches. You are about twenty years too late. These issues were being discussed back in 1995 when I became a church organist. They haven't been addressed because the culture has changed. Society is moving away from regular church attendance, and it is something we have got to accept.  Even if the C of E went ultra liberal, it would still not arrest the slide.  People are either turning atheist or are finding spirituality within themselves. The future for the parish church is grim, but the cathedrals will survive, mainly thanks to tourism.

Best wishes,


""I think, in another generation the church will be different and it may well be smaller, but I don't think it will be extinct," she says. "I think the spark is there, and I just feel it will always be there in rural churches."   

Closing quote from the second link in David's post.  I agree.
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

David Pinnegar

Quote from: Paul Duffy on January 13, 2016, 12:13:24 PM. . You are about twenty years too late. These issues were being discussed back in 1995 when . . .

I hope it's not too late. There is much in the world that understanding of the process of creation in echo of that which created us can accomplish, and much to be lost if it isn't.

Quote from: Nicolette on January 13, 2016, 02:47:49 PM"I think the spark is there, and I just feel it will always be there in rural churches."   . . .

There are many who are eager for healing of understanding in a disjointed world. People have turned away from the churches because what they have heard inside doesn't match up with the outside: it's ceased to be relevant to them. That's a reflection not upon the people . . .

But the work of "+" that puts one with another to create something more than one is always relevant to everything, everybody, everywhere, and is powerful enough to heal all that we experience in discord in the world. It's what Jesus taught, if only the Churches will teach it.

When people realise that what Jesus taught to the crowds that came to hear him was universal rather than limited,2035.0.html, then the crowds in similar numbers will come to the churches to hear it.

It's important for people to know that what Jesus taught is for them, and is as old as the hills. That's the importance of tradition, the framework of the old language, and of traditional music of which the organ plays its part.

Best wishes

David P

Paul Duffy

I hope it's not too late. There is much in the world that understanding of the process of creation in echo of that which created us can accomplish, and much to be lost if it isn't

It is too late. I am a church organist. I have seen the decline with my own eyes, both in an Anglican church where I used to play, and in my own church. Both churches knocked Sunday afternoon services on the head because of low attendance, and weddings are very few and far between. In my own church, we used to have 25+ weddings annually. Now it has been whittled down to two or three. You think people are going to suddenly have a change of heart? Forget it, they aren't. Go back to the French Revolution. People only took note of religion and what it meant to them when it had gone. The Christian faith in godless, materialistic Britain has gone into a modus operandi of managed decline.

QuotePeople have turned away from the churches because what they have heard inside doesn't match up with the outside: it's ceased to be relevant to them. That's a reflection not upon the people . . .

Funny that you should twist things around and blame the churches, including myself, for I am 'part of the establishment' so to speak. Ask any person on the street about their perception of churches and the first thing he or she is likely to say is that they are 'boring'. Therefore, your 'organ and choir renaissance' is holed below the waterline already. Your average person is more likely to want churches to resemble the materialistic world they inhabit outside. In my opinion, this does not include your traditional organ and choir, though it might possibly include the Gareth Malone 'pop choir' model instead, though they would have to sing secular songs with no mention of God or Jesus in them, because your average Brit is embarrassed by these things. It certainly doesn't include the organ, that is for sure. Some 'progressive' churches are actually embarrassed by their organs and want rid of them.

QuoteIt's what Jesus taught, if only the Churches will teach it.

It IS what the churches have been teaching, but people don't want to hear it. Fact it, your average materialistic Brit thinks Jesus is a joke or just a nice story for the kids at Christmas. Oh yes, we get plenty of people through the doors at Christmas, but they all vanish like smoke in the wind come January.

If you think this state of affairs is going to suddenly and magically turn around, then, with respect, you are deluded. If you want to know what the real problem is behind all this, it is that we are the first generation in human history which no longer feels the need to worship something. You aren't going to change that state of affairs with a few ideas about making church relevant. It is like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. We have gone through a severe cultural shift.

Best wishes,

David Pinnegar

Your dose of reality is wonderfully refreshing. But you also hit the nail on the head.

For some years my fortnightly Sunday mornings have been listening not to what Jesus taught about God but what the church wants us to believe about Jesus. The cult worship of Jesus rather than the worship of God have driven people away to the point at which two out of the three churches in the Parish are now one closed and the other about to be.

Were the Church to return to worship of God that Jesus taught the position that you describe would be much more optimistic.

The radicalisation of our religion has turned it away from something in which all feel that they can share.

In sharing in the spirit of the universal "+" that as a matter of commonsense joints one with another people of all faiths, and none, will see whichever brand of religion that leads the way as putting a light to guide in front in the very dark times in which we live.

As the world becomes darker and hate and distrust lead the way no amount of materialism will be an adequate sop to ease the pain, and then will the Church that preaches understanding of God, love, the breath of life, the means by which all is created will be seen as essential.

But any religion that promotes separatism in any way which was good enough in the world of local villages is seen as a matter of commonsense to be a world away from God in which the whole world is one village.

Best wishes

David P


Maybe the answer is somewhere to be found in Revelations.
Nicolette Fraser, B. Mus., ARCO

David Pinnegar

Yes - I quite agree! I particularly warm to the Essene version of Revelation. The Essenes were very much in harmony with the earth, and God's interaction with the earth. They prayed to the Angels of the Earthly Mother every morning, and the Angels of the Heavenly Father every evening.

The speech of the Angels of the Earthly mother speak poignantly to us in our age:
QuoteAnd I opened the first seal.
And I saw, and beheld the Angel of the Air,
And between her lips flowed the breath of life,
And she knelt over the earth
And gave to man the winds of wisdom,
And man breathed in.
And when he breathed out, the sky darkened,
And the sweet air became fetid,
And clouds of evil smoke hung low over all the earth.

And I turned my face away in shame.

And I opened the second seal.
And I saw, and beheld the Angel of the Water.
And between her lips flowed the water of life,
And she knelt over the Earth
And gave to man an ocean of love.
And man entered the clear and shining waters.
And when he touched the water, the clear streams darkened,
And the crystal waters became thick with slime,
And the fish lay gasping in the foul blackness,
And all the creatures died of thirst.

And I turned my face away in shame.

And I opened the third seal.
And I saw and beheld the Angel of the Sun.
And between her lips flowed the light of life,
And she knelt over the earth
And gave to man the Fires of Power.
And the strength of the Sun entered the heart of man,
And he took the power, and made with it a false sun,
And he spread the fires of destruction,
Burning the forests,
Laying waste the green valleys,
Leaving only charred bones of his brothers.

And I turned away in shame.

And I opened the fourth seal.
And I saw, and beheld the Angel of Joy.
And between her lips flowed the music of life,
And she knelt over the Earth
And gave to man the song of peace.
And peace and joy like music
Flowed through the soul of man.
But he heard only the harsh discord of sadness and discontent,
And he lifted up his sword
And cut off the heads of the singers.

And I turned my face away in shame.

And I opened the fifth seal.
And I saw, and beheld the Angel of Life.
And between her lips
Flowed the holy alliance between God and Man,
And she knelt over the Earth
And gave to man the gift of Creation.
And man created a sickle of iron in the shape of a serpent,
And the harvest he reaped was of hunger and death.

And I turned my face away in shame.

And I opened the sixth seal.
And I saw, and beheld the Angel of the Earth.
And between her lips flowed the river of eternal life,
And she knelt over the Earth
And gave to man the secret of eternity,
And told him to open his eyes

And behold the mysterious Tree of Life in the Endless Sea.
But man lifted up his hand and put out his own eyes,
And said there is no eternity.

And I turned my face away in shame.

And I opened the seventh seal.
And I saw, and beheld the Angel of the Earthly Mother.
And she brought with her a message of blazing light
From the throne of the Heavenly Father.
And this message was for the ears of Man alone,
He who walks between the Earth and Heaven,
And into the ear of man was whispered the message.
And he did not hear.

But I did not turn away my face in shame.
Lo, I reached out my hand to the wings of the angel,
And turned my voice to heaven saying,
"Tell me the message. For I would eat of the fruit
Of the Tree of Life that grows in the Sea of Eternity."

And the angel looked upon me with great sadness,
And there was silence in Heaven.

There follows the passage with which we are more familiar.

Then -
Quote'O Man, would you have this vision come to pass?'
And I answered, 'You know I would do anything
So that these terrible things might not come to pass.'

And he spoke: "Man has created these powers of destruction.
He has made them from his own mind.
He has turned his face away
From the angels of the Heavenly Father and the Earthly Mother,
And he has fashioned his own destruction."

And I spoke: "Then is there no hope, bright angel?"
And a blazing light streamed like a river from his hands
As he answered, "There is always hope,
O thou for whom Heaven and Earth were created."

There is always hope.

All we need to do is to turn to the Creator, to operate the process of creation ourselves in our own lives and it is never seen other than a light to others.

The sooner we turn to the operation of hearing our father's voice and doing it, operating creation and healing rather than destruction and separation, the less treacherous the darkness . . . . and the corresponding silence of organs.

Best wishes

David P

David Pinnegar

It's not until the Church gets a handle on its relevance to all people that organs will be singing again.

The Times' headline today "Soppy Christians are their own worst enemy" rather says it all. A further sentence echos exactly what I've been saying "People want meaning in their lives, and will flock to those who offer it".

There are many so-called Christians who I meet whose understanding of God is no more than a superstitious belief in the teddy bear in the sky who will do it for them. Such Christians will not attract more than the simple and the gullible into their churches, but when people realise that the God of Love, the God of Creation is as simple and as effective as 1+1=2, so obvious and under our noses as 1 PLUS 1, then the penny drops. As soon as it's allowed to say that one's God, The Creator, doesn't have to be defined as a person, so that the PLUS can be viewed as that which creates and which is a valid tool of all things and for all people, then even "atheists" realise that Jesus in his teachings has something for them too.

Best wishes

David P

David Pinnegar

Dear Paul

Thanks for that - one clearly has to read things within the context of the time and sense of the document involved.

The document that you're referring to is actually a different document which portrays Jesus not as a majickman working metaphysical miracles but as a very down-to-earth medical practitioner of the time. There are many even today who swear to the miracles achieved by enemas. But that is beside the point here.

There seems to be widespread depresssion, lack of any feeling of empowerment to be able to achieve anything, and particularly any role that the Church can play. But yet through the Creator, there is always hope.

The law of population is that those who don't breed die out in the long run, overtaken by those who breed. That is the nature of the law of the process of Creation. It does not apply only to population numbers and physical objects but to ideas and actions too.

Rudyard Kipling's "If" comes to mind. The last line of the Lord's Prayer about which I've written more than once here, also, teaching us how to Create in worship and echo of that which has produced us, Our Father . . . "Deliver us from uncreation". By creating, even though those around us operate in ignorance of what creates, we shall each create more than the uncreators, and creation produces the results. Uncreation is only finite and temporary whilst creation is permanent, eternal.

It's for this reason that there is life of which the Church is capable in bringing the Creator to the fore, and with such perspective will thrive and lead the way.

One very easy way in which it can be achieved is outlined above in retaining as traditional services as anyone wants but by the inviting and inclusion of others of other faiths incorporating their texts in textual and meaningful agreement with ours to come together to be read at our services. Congregations will swell and the Church will have full support, actually achieving the purposes of God.

Best wishes

David P

(Merely in the nature of a footnote, whilst there may be controversy about Szekely - and make of that what you will - the passage quoted above from the Revelation text is extraordinarily communicative in terms of our relationship with our planet, each other and God. It's a visible rather than risible accurate description of now. Putting that version of Revelation aside,  in the conventional text there's clearly more than meets the eye