Energy is God

[David Pinnegar]

Hi!

I thought I'd start this one with an assertion that atheists will understand . . . that energy is God . . . and that's why with diminishing oil our electricity bills are going up!

But the reverse is true too - that God is energy.

On other threads I've proposed that the work of god is in the interaction of matter with circumstances and therefore have an energy.

This works from the origin of the universe in the coming together of matter that forms solar systems, planets, and brings matter into order from out of the void of chaos.

I've proposed that Christ's teachings bring that spirit into the relationship between animate life, and in the conscious world, that being us also.

When we translate the language of the physical world into that of the consciously animate world, the analogies match.

Matter does nothing if it stays still. Neither do people who stay still (mentally or physically). Matter and people correspond.

We talk in Christianity of the Power of the Spirit. The spirit is "the idea" - whether of God or, for instance when we talk of "the spirit of the law" - and the power of the spirit is literally a conveyance of a moving force, an energy.

When matter moves, it encounters distance, or other matter. When we move in a motorcar we look at the speedometer to see how fast we are going, or perhaps the passing mileposts. With luck with no traffic jams or crashing into other cars we will arrive at our destination at the expected time if we go at a certain speed. But if we get lost and our speed is in the wrong direction we won't get anywhere at all . . . .

It's in this way that as matter, we move, through circumstances, distance and objects and experience time as a measure of the density of the number of our encounters.

But it's not the speed that matters in getting to our destination: it's the velocity, velocity being a measure of both speed and direction.

So circumstances are our velocity.

Mass times velocity is momentum: the intensity of our consciousness as matter multiplied by our number of circumstances.

This is intimately related to energy, being momentum times velocity again, mass times velocity squared, reminding us that circumstances (as velocity being squared) are more powerful influences on our energy, what we do, what we achieve, than merely the conscious matter that makes us.

In the universe, matter that comes into contact with circumstances in the act of creation of something useful works in the creation process, ie for God, the purposes of God. Positive behaving humans are the same and contribute to eternity.

Yet underneath are processes of chaos in which even anti-particles, anti-matter, has a role. Negative behaving humans exist like antimatter, meeting matter and annihilating it to be turned into pure energy for the subsequent use as matter later on, and similarly like Judas, expiring in a flash.

When we see political structures groups form specific order, but a comfy consensus being dangerous, perceivedly negative forces come to erode that order from which to build another in the nature of progress and creation.

Because Christ gave instructions for the direction of our consciousness, christianity provides a direct path in constructive processes and without which people with whom Christ's teachings have had little contact are more likely to be lost in random, and often destructive directions.

Best wishes

David P

Postscript - because energy is velocity squared, circumstances = direction and rate of travel, it means that the power of the direction of our intention to work to the positive is also squared.

Circumstances - all the people around one have circumstances, velocities - speeds and directions that have led them to the place in the present where they are now and with which they are travelling into the future. The vectors of their travel are invisible to us - we only see a glimpse of them in the present - and their interactions are an invisible dimension to us. But the world of God is that invisible, all powerful and eternal dimension in which all such circumstances interact.

[MusingMuso]

Dear David,

Though I would dearly love to equate God with energy, and thus save myself, (and God), agreat deal of it, the current state of play in theoretical cosmology tends to suggest that the universe is as much as 70% "dark energy," 25% dark matter, and only 5% both observable energy and observable matter.

This means that 95% of the universe is a complete mystery, yet theoretically, it must exist if the cosmologists have done their sums right.

If we care to trace the origins of the 5% of visible energy and matter, we pass through the various stages of creation in reverse; first into simpler life-forms, then into complex chemical elements, then into the base elements of the periodic table, then into hydrogen and helium and finally, into pure (observable) energy and the cosmic dust left by the big-bang. We can't even start to contemplate the other 95% of creation.

Now are you making the case for some sort of "organised energy," or to put it another way, a creation process which has purpose and design?

That's a nice thought too, like Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Nevertheless, the underlying rules of physics, (as they apply to the 5% of creation we can observe), do tend to demonstrate the interrelatedness of things, the convergence of energetic entities and the effects of the same. However, I tend to think that the idea does not readily extend or expand into some sort of theology, no matter how attractive the concept may be.

Assuming that we exist, (I am, I think, real), then the only thing which really matters is the now of our relationship with infinity, with creation and even with the forces of chaos and irrationality. If anyone or anything put us here, then it is fairly unlikely that a pre-requisite to that existence would be faith in a hundred impossible theories, since any "understanding" could only ever be concerned with 5% of the whole.

Of course, it may well be that "faith" and "belief" are those things which enable us to think and dare to be human, creative and even loving, but looking towards theoretical science and cosmology for the purposes of daily-living and human interaction, is probably stretching theory beyond the boundaries of anything meaningful.

On the other hand, by accepting the chaos of existence, I can start to create an inner, spiritual world of order, meaning and inner peace.....the spark of God within us...the still small voice of calm.

The real miracle of Christianity is not the half-baked cosmology of ancient scribes, but the personal, compassionate and loving ethos of Jesus, which transcends time and space, and speaks to us to-day as much as it ever did.

Best,

MM

[David Pinnegar]

Though I would dearly love to equate God with energy, and thus save myself, (and God), agreat deal of it, the current state of play in theoretical cosmology tends to suggest that the universe is as much as 70% "dark energy," 25% dark matter, and only 5% both observable energy and observable matter.

Dear MM

:o Perhaps you are proving the point  ;) in the apparent ratio of infidels, gentiles and mere jungle animals to believers and people who practice the teachings of Christ in faith . . . ?  ;D

The point that I'm making is that of similarity of systemmatic behaviour: "religion" deals with the behaviour of people and teaches about it whilst physics deals with the behaviour of the physical realm, which includes people. The two systems are parallel but the teachings of Christ are validly observed as symbolic in both realms. The physics demonstrates that the teachings of Christ are true in the same way as by symbolism mathematics demonstrates observations in physics likewise. Mathematics has manipulable symbols applicable to the description of the real world just as Christ's parables and the parables of Genesis do likewise.

The result of Christ's teachings and the understanding of the invisible world of circumstances and the requirement for all to find its confluence provides a compelling reason why faith has a part to play in modern life - and for all the love that is expressed, it is meaningless without the direction of faith. Love merely binds two objects together like gravitation, without sending them off in the direction of the confluence of the river of circumstances invisibly propelling some forward and others in frictional eddies.

In this world where people reject the invisible for being imaginary, the mechanism demonstrates the real physical existence of the "god-world" beyond the visible and, I believe and hope, gives reason for people to have the cause and courage to search for and find the god-force and seek and find faith as a result. True happiness comes from certainty and the certainty of the god-world as a result of finding the god-direction and god-force gives a momentum to life in which otherwise insecurities frustrate.

It's in this way that Matthew 6 has meaning:

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

There is cause for people who have not yet experienced the operation of the invisible world to seek and find understanding of how it operates.

Best wishes

David P

[MusingMuso]

Dear David,

I have to go out, but the quote from Matthew also crossed my mind. I dispensed with it because it is a re-working of much older Jewish scripture, and not at all unique to the Chrstian faith or, if I recall correctly, the Jewish faith.

I'll respond when I have time.....probably about 4am tommorow!

Best,

MM

[MusingMuso]

[
Dear MM

:o Perhaps you are proving the point  ;) in the apparent ratio of infidels, gentiles and mere jungle animals to believers and people who practice the teachings of Christ in faith . . . ?  ;D

The point that I'm making is that of similarity of systemmatic behaviour: "religion" deals with the behaviour of people and teaches about it whilst physics deals with the behaviour of the physical realm, which includes people. The two systems are parallel but the teachings of Christ are validly observed as symbolic in both realms. The physics demonstrates that the teachings of Christ are true in the same way as by symbolism mathematics demonstrates observations in physics likewise. Mathematics has manipulable symbols applicable to the description of the real world just as Christ's parables and the parables of Genesis do likewise.

The result of Christ's teachings and the understanding of the invisible world of circumstances and the requirement for all to find its confluence provides a compelling reason why faith has a part to play in modern life - and for all the love that is expressed, it is meaningless without the direction of faith. Love merely binds two objects together like gravitation, without sending them off in the direction of the confluence of the river of circumstances invisibly propelling some forward and others in frictional eddies.

In this world where people reject the invisible for being imaginary, the mechanism demonstrates the real physical existence of the "god-world" beyond the visible and, I believe and hope, gives reason for people to have the cause and courage to search for and find the god-force and seek and find faith as a result. True happiness comes from certainty and the certainty of the god-world as a result of finding the god-direction and god-force gives a momentum to life in which otherwise insecurities frustrate.

It's in this way that Matthew 6 has meaning:

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

There is cause for people who have not yet experienced the operation of the invisible world to seek and find understanding of how it operates.

Best wishes

David P

Dear David,

I'm sorry, but I just cannot get on your wavelength at all, but more significantly, I think I would have to challenge some of the statements you make.

For instance:-

"....."religion" deals with the behaviour of people and teaches about it."

I can agree with this to some extent, but considering that three of the major religion originated in broadly the same area, (Judaism, Christianity & Islam), and share many common features and origins, it begs the question as to why there have been constant upsurges, wars and conflicts of belief covering thousands of years. Is it not the case that the hidden agenda is that of tribalism and identity, where religion is little more than a badge of allegiance and honour?

Behaviour, from a very different perspective, is probably part nature and part nurture, and it's very interesting to compare the behaviour of identical twins. I have a lovely little black-cat, and his twin brother living some miles away, (adopted by a quite different household when he was a few weeks old), behaves very similarly in a number of very specific ways, and I'm not just referring to normal cat things, but the things which make each animal unique.

What religion ever teaches about patterns of genetically linked behavioural traits?

Because religion has yet to come to terms with biology, physiology, genealogy and psychology, (there must be lots of other types of relevant "ology"), it means that religion is really concerned with the politics of control and manipulation; perhaps even maintaining the status-quo of theocracies. That is precisely why much religion is tribal, and finds itself in easy conflict with tribes and peoples of other faiths.

Now another statement:-

"The physics demonstrates that the teachings of Christ are true."

We may like to think that it does, but actually, the minute one escapes the earth's atmosphere, most of the rules start to change. Physics, as a science, is very imperfect and errors are frequently made. More to the point, there are shortcomings in the mathematics, so I am reliably informed. Even Einstein's theories are frequently challenged, and may not quite provide the absolute constants we, (meaning "they"), search for. As for the physics of black-holes, perhaps we should draw a veil, if such were necessary.  :)

Take another statement:-

"Mathematics has manipulable symbols applicable to the description of the real world"

I had to smile when I read this, because the words which stood out were "manipulable" and "the real world."

Ten years ago, I was predicting an economic crash, and around the same time, two people had gained a Nobel Prize for coming up with a mathematical model which, they claimed, would eliminate all financial risk in bank investments and bank liquidity. Unfortunately, they failed to understand that there were more promissory notes floating around than there was money in the world, thus stretching the credibility of even the most ardent devotees of FIAT economies. I think I have more faith in alchemy and sorcery, quite frankly.

Had they gone back to the Bible, I'm sure they would eventually have stumbled upon the bit about houses being built on sand!

I cannot even begin to understand the next quote:-

."...love...... meaningless without the direction of faith. Love merely binds two objects together like gravitation, without sending them off in the direction...."

"As a young teenager, I met Gladys Aylward . I hadn't a clue who she was or what she did particularly, but there was an undeniable aura of all embracing love such as I've seldom experienced. I'm sure she had a sense of direction, (considering that she led 500 children to safety over the Himalayas), but of course, I was quite unaware of that. It was all very instinctive, and together, we weren't going anywhere.

Perhaps this is why we know the familiar phrases, "Love is blind" or "Love will find a way."

I was naive enough to once believe that love was the only thing which separated us from the animal world, until I watched a couple of young otters at Rotterdam Zoo, but that apart, it is often impossible to know where love leads; hence the four "loves" as we understand them.

Take a current "problem" with which I have been involved recently, of a 16 year old boy totally rejected by his family, who comes out of a youth prison and goes into temporary care. Quite lost in the world, he hangs onto anyone who treats him with respect and tries to guide him in the right direction....but to little avail. It wasn't long before he stole from me, his friends, his family and any other victim he could find. He was out robbing houses most of the night, and a master of "sneak thief" activity. He recently hit the headlines after allegedly setting fire to a house and causing perhaps £50,000 of damage, and along with two other boys around his own age, has now been charged with arson and taken back into captivity.

It's very difficult knowing what to do for the best, and whether to keep in touch or just walk away. Fortunately, I'm not so Bible-bound that I seek only for answers therein, because I am acutely aware of a terrible background of physical abuse from his step-father, the fact that he is still at that "psychopathic" age between 15 and 16 and probably doesn't even understand himself or the things that he does.

However, logic tells me that keeping in touch and visiting him in prison is not a difficult option, in view of his present circumstances and the fact that he is likely to be incarcerated for quite some time. When it comes to longer term matters of care and concern, I doubt that anyone could predict the outcome with any degree of certainty, but I do know that he tried to commit suicide a couple of nights ago, and irrespective of the things he has done, he is still young, intelligent and, in many ways, very likeable.

Love, care and concern don't need direction; especially when faced with a chaotic mind and existence. In my experience, love doesn't just lead the way, it often shows the way, even though that way may at first be obscure or uncertain.

As for finding true happiness from certainty, I enjoy few certainties, yet I am perfectly happy.

Go figure!

Best,

MM

[David Pinnegar]

Dear MM

I suspect that we look merely at opposite ends of the same telescope.

The thoughts expressed are complex and it will probably take more than one attempt to convey or clarify them into any shape of comprehensibilty.

It is a fundamental perception of physics that "interesting things" only happen in the process of the interaction of matter with circumstances. Such interactions have properties of energy, force to convey energy, direction and result. I point out merely a systemmatic similarity of process between the physical world and the animate world. Analogy of process can assist understanding of parallel systems.

You can reduce it to "God is Love" if you want to: it is clearly "Love" which is the "energy" providing the torque that provides direction to the truck of your life-force.

Such thoughts that have been written in this thread are written not to impress nor convert you but to help lads like your 16 year old choose from informed volition, the path of good, creation and eternity - together with purpose in that - over bad, disillusionment and destruction.

The young lad who you describe is not going to be able to live safely outside the garden of safety in which he is confined unless he is capable of eating of the tree of knowledge of how life interacts so that then he can go and grow his own crops when released despite all the weeds and thistles of his mind that will otherwise choke him. "Love" can be miraculous but love without understanding and choosing, direction, is a slow road.

To some, especially children, understanding how to operate the video recorder comes naturally, but others find it easier to read the instruction book, and it's even easier if one understands not merely what it does but the process by which it operates.

Learning about God is about exploring the invisible rather than material realms, to understand their power and work with them. To many who don't understand, life is two dimensional and things result from one person meeting another, and more often than not, not getting along. The reality is more complex: one person has circumstances which meet with the circumstances of another person when two people meet - and those meetings of circumstances allow the preconditions for what we might call "love" to happen. The reality is more complex still as we consider that we ride in a material world in a boat of visibility which floats upon the mesh invisible, a sea, of interlocking circumstances involving those of all other people and all other matter. This includes the past and the future of all the circumstances attached to all other people. It includes the direction of the thoughts of all other people, their intentions being the directions towards their future thoughts, and what other people are saying to you directly, thinking but not saying, and saying behind your back. They include all the past that has led to such thoughts as well as the future directions from which those thoughts lead.

It is in this way that circumstances have direction, power, velocity and energy and the capacity to be forces upon our lives and others. The interaction of matter and circumstances shares the same physics whether or not the matter is inanimate, or animate and conscious. It is in this consciousness that the human is made in the image of God.

Best wishes

David P

[David Pinnegar]

Learning about ["the Genesis power that creates order out of disorder"] is about exploring the invisible rather than material realms, to understand their power and work with them. To many who don't understand, life is two dimensional and things result from one person meeting another, and more often than not, not getting along. The reality is more complex: one person has circumstances which meet with the circumstances of another person when two people meet - and those meetings of circumstances allow the preconditions for what we might call "love" to happen. The reality is more complex still as we consider that we ride in a material world in a boat of visibility which floats upon the mesh invisible, a sea, of interlocking circumstances involving those of all other people and all other matter. This includes the past and the future of all the circumstances attached to all other people. It includes the direction of the thoughts of all other people, their intentions being the directions towards their future thoughts, and what other people are saying to you directly, thinking but not saying, and saying behind your back. They include all the past that has led to such thoughts as well as the future directions from which those thoughts lead.

Hi!

The concept of us appearing as boats, visible, supported and floating upon an invisible sea of circumstances brought to mind the example of Jesus in the boat on the sea of Galilee. He was able to climb out of the boat and walk on the water without sinking, saying that anyone could do so with enough faith. The fact that no-one has been able to do so in the material world might suggest that the story is not about material water but is about that sea of circumstances, invisible and as clear or as murky sometimes and that if one puts one's trust in and works for / in harmony with/ the miracle force that creates order out of disorder, then one can walk on the sea of circumstances without sinking in and drowning.

In this material world in which it is unfashionable to acknowledge the work of God in the sea of circumstances, people see other people, as boats floating on the water and they can see what they want, whether it be a ship of pirate gold in one direction or a lighthouse on safe land in the other. They do not allow themselves to see the sea beneath that supports their boat, and without seeing the water of the sea of circumstances, without being able to hold a finger to the wind to determine its direction or see the direction of flotsam on the water, they are significantly lost for a direction of how to pick up the wave that will lead them to the lighthouse or the ship of pirate gold. The route to them is invisible. Of course one can get the oars out and row, and many do, but directed circumstances being squared more powerful than our own efforts, the currents of the water and the strength of the wind are stronger than oars of our own. The decision therefore to put the power of our oars in the direction of the currents of [God's] circumstances multiplies the energy and the distances achieved.

It's in this way that contact with places of God, and organs are a way in which we do, has a much higher importance than currently acknowledged in giving direction to our travels on the sea of circumstances. God is the energy, without which we can do so much less.

It's also in this way that in seeking spiritual (inspiration of idea) ways of interpreting our stories from Christ, and demonstrating that the world of God (as the force bringing order out of chaos) can be found through those stories, differences of religions can be dissolved. Whilst other religions bring enlightenment through rules and ritual, arguable the spiritual interpretations of Christ stories can lead directly to the Force of Order out of Chaos in its purest form and even within the other religions too, hand in hand. This is necessary for the peace (cooperation and survival) of the world.

It's in this way that the habitual Place of Organs, as an organisation, might flourish better by doing away with imagery that focusses upon Jesus as a hero, as an idol or statue, and instead look for the ways in which the bible story takes a spiritual journey living in a realm invisible beyond the material in which it can be confused. The Holy Trinity, being
The Father - force that creates order out of disorder (Genesis 1)
The Son - those that hear the words of the father and do them (Matthew 12:50)
Holy Spirit - the Idea, conveyance of the Idea
the three components to the mechanism necessary to the spreading of order as a function of the force of the creation of order out of disorder.

Many intelligent people turn their backs upon the church because the spiritual realm of the meaning of the texts, which can be as plain as daylight, has been lost to a preference for Alpha course brainwashing and simplism of Graham Kendrick hymns. Sorry - I forgot - they're called "songs" nowadays, sinking still more into the material world.

Best wishes

David P

[MusingMuso]

I still have difficulty with the concept of "order out of chaos."  I see it as a totally natural phenomenon that chaos, (or merely that which is disorganised), exists perfectly happily in the presence of "order," without need for elaboration or the implied, pre-requisite acceptance of some vague spirituality.

As the song says, "It's just the way it is."

Order, such as it is in humanly conscious terms, (rather than the geneological and evolutionary order over which we have no say), is really about "civilisation" and all that goes with it.

I haven't time to expound on the Trinity, but it may well be the most important aspect of faith, followed by the Ascension and, (in a miserable third place), the Ressurection.

I shall expound later, but I would just point out that a magician appeared to walk across the Thames quite recently, and I have yet to see the (logical) explanation of it.

MM

[revtonynewnham]

Hi

You could also argue that "spiritual songs2 is re-establishing the Biblical pattern - "speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord," (Eph 5:19 - also Colossians 3:16).

Also, the lyrics of a lot of Kendrick's songs are far from simplistic!

Every Blessing

Tony

[David Pinnegar]

I still have difficulty with the concept of "order out of chaos."  I see it as a totally natural phenomenon that chaos, (or merely that which is disorganised), exists perfectly happily in the presence of "order,"

It's simply that "God" in Genesis 1 is that totally natural phenomen. It is a perverse and obstinate force that does something strange to our natural experience of entropic increase. Genesis 1 simply is the definition of god. Without it, the book, Christ's teachings, churches, cathedrals, organs, Islam and every other religion, have no meaning. The problems in our churches exist because Genesis 1, giving the definition, is ignored or misunderstood and the personification and anthropomorphisms of wooden idols and statues are seen to be ridiculous by the uninitiated or unindoctrinated.

Perhaps I have read the comment wrongly: as written it begs the question as to why there should be order at all in the presence of chaos. It is strange that it should come about, and that is what I read as Genesis 1 as saying. Natural force as it is, it is one that we ignore at our peril and if we seek to understand it, even to the point of worship, harmony multiplies.

Tony: apologies to Kendrick - but the intellect with which any such depth is drawn to attention at services to which some are subjected is enough in my own experience to turn people away from the church rather than the reverse.

Best wishes

David P

[MusingMuso]

Dear David,

I don't like maritime analogies. I've always regarded myself as the victim of the sea of circumstances, and like all choppy waters, it has had more than its fair share of highs and lows, with ever present perils and the risk of capsize. When I chose to work in corporate finance, it was a good job I had music and an HGV licence as both life-jacket and rubber-ring; such were the risks, the company collapses and even Robert Maxwell, (the most indebted man in the world at the time), falling  off his yacht in the middle of the night.

I still have a problem with the concept of "order out of chaos," because it is rather like the linear thinking of time-line "progress"....God working HIS purpose out, as year succeeds to year.

Is there such a thing as creative chaos?
 
The atheist would certainly agree with this concept, because they would regard creation as a series of random events: even the creation of the stars, planets and the whole of life on earth.

David refers frequently to the process of entropy, which in scientific terms is broadly concerned with invisible energy which appears to serve no immediate function. Curiously and perhaps perversely, the word is also used to describe the way that any "system" tends to move towards randomness and chaos.

Even the powerful, molecular and biological organisation of DNA can be overwhelmed by the cellular chaos of cancer.

Searching for some "invisible life force" is akin to photographing a burning candle against the background of the mid-day sun. If someone shows you a photograph of the same, it would be impossible to prove or disprove the "image of a burning candle" from a scientific, linear view of the world. However, it would be a brave and foolish person who called the photographer a liar, and a wise man would first assess the character of the photographer and then choose to either believe or disbelieve the evidence as it is presented.

My point is relatively simple; the ordered and chaotic elements are symbiotic, with whatever "systems" we care to choose moving regularly and relatively freely from one state to the other. Thus, there is order out of chaos certainly, but there must also be chaos out of order if entropy is to mean anything at all.

However, it has to be acknowledged that science furnishes us with few credible answers as to the origin of the universe and life on earth, but that is no excuse for believing what is written in Genesis.

Was Genesis ever anything more than old men sitting in a circle, with nothing better to do but scratch at the ground with pointed sticks?
It isn't science and it isn't philosophy, and all it does is point towards the absolutely bloody obvious.

"Something," (call it God if you will), made the earth, life and all that we are. (Not even the most die-hard atheist would disagree with that). Had the Garden of Eden been in the middle of the Atacama Desert, it would have been impressive , but in truth, it was a mythical place like Shangri-La. The imagery is not far away from "heaven on earth" or the great palace of Xanadu, and it would have had a special appeal to those tending their sheep and cattle in a red-hot climate.

The expression, "I could kill for an ice-cream," takes on a special meaning when you're strolling along the shores of the Dead Sea, as does,"walking in the garden in the cool of the day."

No, the fact that Genesis makes the case for the obvious is not my concern, but in the wider context, it is first and foremost a Jewish statement of monotheism, which identifies the Jews as a people and set them apart from ancient Babylon; their traditional enemy. I don't, for one moment see it as a satisfactory explanation of anything other than material creation BY WHATEVER MEANS, of which the scribes knew little and we only a fraction more.

I really can't subscribe to "the God of the gaps" anymore than I can subscribe to "order out of chaos," because there are so many inconsistencies, conflicting sciences and theoretical assumptions.

"It's just the way it is," is not a statement of despair; more a statement of belief, based on the FACT that something fairly awesome created us and all that is, but whether that is a "force of order," "big daddy" or the mind-boggling mathematics of random chance, I cannot even begin to say.

What I do know, is that the mathematics involved in "all that is," are immense beyond belief.

90 billion light years across a still expanding universe?

For anyone who cares to do the mathematics, that's  186,282.397 miles (per second) X 60 X 60 X 24 X 365 X 90,000,000,000.

How about our near neighbour, the Galaxy Andromeda, which contains an estimated One Trillion stars?

I we want to know how far it is to travel there, we would have to multiply 6 trillion miles, (the distance light travels in a year) and multiply it by 2.5 million. It works out at a staggering 15,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles away, and we've barely reached the front door-step. (Is that 15 squillion?)

If we want to find the meaning and origins of life, the answer is still definitely 42, unless someone, (anyone?), can come up with an improved offer.

I'm big enough and small enough to accept that, "It's just the way it is."

Best wishes,

MM

[David Pinnegar]

Dear MM

I think that I'm trying to say that the book about which buildings around organs are erected describes a metaphor for all that you quite rightly boggle at but can't quite put your finger on in just the same way that we derive so much from and yet can't quite understand the square root of minus one.

By a "sea" of circumstances I mean the 3 dimensional layers of the mesh that builds up over the course of time of circumstances. If you consider the micro descisions that led you to be reading this at the very instant that you read it, and the micro decisions that led to others doing likewise and the microdecisions a moment before that and a moment before that one can see that at the instant we read this text our circumstances are aligned. The fact that there is a timelag between my writing in one place on the mesh and your reading on another place on the mesh demonstrates a 3 dimensionality to the depth of the mesh of such circumstances linked between the time deposited layers, so that the interconnected mesh behaves as a liquid, and thus a sea, and, if you have faith to do so, a sea upon which you can walk like Jesus.

The circumstances are sequences of events that go back to eternity and, as made by conscious beings in our realm, can be even thoughts of directions in which others will go, thoughts leading to a probability of actions.

Another proposition that is extraordinary is that circumstances are conscious. Perhaps its in this way that telepathy works and likewise prayer. So someone else's circumstances know that my circumstances or your circumstances will be there to meet them when they are needed to meet.

A minor example of that happened in the most mundane way this afternoon. When riding a bicycle from Antibes to Cannes, I never carry a bicycle pump. But today, being worried about a possible puncture, I did. In a decade of journeying so for the Festival, I have never passed a cyclist who needed one, but today on the day I was carrying a pump, I met a cyclist who needed it. An incident happened last year through which possibly a life was saved. For some reason my body-clock was late and it wasn't until around 2 oclock that I went outside to cross the road to the food shop to buy some fruit or whatever. Picture a place on top of a steep hill, a bend and road junction at the bottom lethal without brakes. Picture the probability of anyone stopping on account of their chain coming off. Picture the probability of finding help in a place where passers by pass by and residents hide behind electronic gates in walls. On the particular occasion, I stopped for 10 minutes longer than I needed to or would ordinarily have done, passing the time of day in conversation with the shop-keeper. Upon crossing the road within 10 yards of my door, a lady had her bicycle upside down, the chain off, and I helped her. In doing so I noticed the brakes weren't adjusted properly and would not work. I happened to have the tools to hand and did it.

Of course these are the most trivial of examples, but the probabilities of being in the right places at the right times were small enough to demonstrate a function.

Another more impressive example was last year when our eldest son needed some medical help beyond that which I was able to give. His need was driving us to desperation as to know what to do. An acquaintance who is an organist who I might happen to see once in every 18 months or so happened to visit randomly one afternoon with his 90 year old mother to come to play the organ. He happens to be a GP and I mentioned our difficulties. He dropped his mother back home and returned that evening to make dinner with us during which he gave our son a medical interview and thereafter directed us helpfully to know what to do.

In these examples, the circumstances were conscious. It wasn't a train driver organist who visited that afternoon when needed, but a doctor. His circumstances, in the knowledge that he would help, put him in the right place at the right time to do what the circumstances knew he would do, being a man of goodness and faith.

I'm sure that many others can find such examples in their lives when circumstances have carried them to safety or to have provided the means of safety for others. Perhaps "For those in peril on the sea" takes a new meaning.

Reducing the sea of circumstances to the mere mesh of the instant in time at the surface, it is a mesh like a matrix of interactions between matter and circumstances as pieces on a chess board. The faithless go blindly forward, even if there is another piece in the way, and even if not, end up under their own power walking forward as in a mirror, under the illusion of walking forward but going backward in reality. Those with faith will listen to the circusmtances and see the little signposts, and without knowing why, will obey the call to "turn left", "go right" or take the diagonal path. It won't be until five squares later that they find they have been required to be where they are to interact with someone else along the path.

It is in this way that, whilst starting out with a reverence for Christ's second commandment and having difficulties with the first "love thy God" on account of all the sorts of reasons that drive people to be atheists, in analysing the interactions of matter (m) and circumstances (v), and recognising the force of God in the energy ¹/₂ mv² (referring to circumstances as c would be too corny . . . !) that results, and taking the force of God to be the creative force, is beginning for me to help me to understand Christ's first commandment. Faith, far from being that nonsense Father Christmas mumbo jumbo stuff, starts now to have a firm foundation of rationality, however much anyone likes to poke fun at the flimsiness of the apparent coincidences that appear to be the experimental proof of the mesh/matrix/sea model of events and the consciousness of circumstances.

When you get out of the safety of the boat, and walk on the water of circumstances, faith leads a safe path. All one needs is the confidence to do so.

Was Jesus talking about something else?

Finally, it has always been acknowledged that disorder is a natural function of the universe and that God is a master of it too. Yahweh had a pretty impressive temper at times, Zues and Thor were known as The Thunderer and Apollo was known to be the Creator as well as The Destroyer. Those who like to interpret God only as love have great disappointments when losing their loved ones in a war or in disasters such as the Fukushima tsunami. The point about Genesis perhaps, as you say, may be less about being the creation of order out of disorder, but simply the creative force in itself.

We are here, matter exists, so some perverse creative force has to be acknowledged. The places of organs have something to say to us, not merely what physicists can say about the physical world, not merely what psychoanylists want to tell us about the mind, about which they change their minds, but something more. They can teach us how to handle our minds and the reaction of our minds to circumstances. If we read the metaphors correctly, perhaps they can lead us to peace and salvation - a very real salvation from the violence of a world which will otherwise head to destruction.

For the latter reason, there is an urgency to this - an urgency in time and an urgency of energy.

Coming out of Cannes this year is the Candida Brady film "Trashed" starring Jeremy Irons. From its synopsis, it's worth looking out for.

Best wishes

David P

Postscript
In the spirit of the consciousness of circumstances, whilst above are examples of what the conscious circumstances worked for the benefit of others, last week I had an example where I followed the desires of my own ego, did not go with the confulence of circumstances, and this week discovered as a result that were I to have followed the circumstances I would be £4k better of this week and still done what I wanted to do. When one ends up £4000 poorer as a result of following the ego rather than the circumstances, it begins to be rather an expensive lesson.

The whole point about Genesis 1, however one wants to boggle and reject its notions or find difficulties with an analytical approach that demonstrates its power, as soon as one acknowledges that particular concept of the creative force in one's own life, and as part of the creative force's sphere, and submits to it and becomes part of it, life becomes a whole load easier with that force and that energy behind you. Without it, one's always getting exhausted cycling against the wind.

People talk about making a pact with the Devil - or a pact with God. There are a few rules: working with, or being willing to compromise with the Devil is folly - give him an inch and he'll take a mile. Instead, working with "the force of creation in the universe", give it an inch and it will lead you a mile. A mile's free ride is exhiliarating!

How many times in one's life has one realised that one could have done something that would have been good to do as well and thought that it would cost what you wanted to do instead, finding afterwards that you could have done the good thing as well as what you wanted to do? It's having the faith to do it, with the reward that the Creation Force will help you to do it and do what else you wanted to do as well, that makes all the difference.

[Contrabombarde]

David, you're surely forgetting that in order to create light God had to first put in place Maxwell's laws of thermodynamics. For the benefit of his audience the scribe of Genesis wisely summarised them as

"And God said, 'Let there be light!' and there was light" (Genesis 1:3)

when he really meant to say,

"And God said, Let:



and there was light."

[MusingMuso]

David, you're surely forgetting that in order to create light God had to first put in place Maxwell's laws of thermodynamics. For the benefit of his audience the scribe of Genesis wisely summarised them as

"And God said, 'Let there be light!' and there was light" (Genesis 1:3)

when he really meant to say,

"And God said, Let:



and there was light."

=====================



Love knows no laws!


MM

[David Pinnegar]

:-)

I can see that this is causing some fun.

"Love knows no laws" - neither did the waves of the Japanese Tsunami. Yahweh and Apollo were both known as the Creator, Destroyer, and represent both ends of the taking to pieces to put back together again in another form. This is expressed in Hindu deities also, a common theme. To say that God is Love turns people who have suffered disaster into atheists because it is apparent that He does not love them. Parents who have lost sons. Wives who have lost husbands.

But God as the Creative Force is much more profound.

Maxwell's equations . . . :-)

Whilst bicycling against the wind today I was thinking of another simile. Above, I have given three examples apparently demonstrating conscious circumstances and cause for faith. They can be criticised for being mere cherries on the cake of random events that simply coincide with a preconceived pattern of happenings. However, the circumstances were each of such low probability, I had dismissed that possibility, even though perhaps such low probabilities can fall within a spectrum of randomness. Effectively though, people with faith have identified a series or sequence of events that they have experienced that significantly exceed the threshold of background noise of randomness of events.

The simile that came to mind arose from Hartley and Shannon's work on information theory. This, being examination of pulses down a line is a sort of single dimension statistical mechanics leading to concepts of entropy as in a three dimensional gas. We inject noise into a line and see what the minimum size signal we can reliably recover. If we dismiss all voltages lower than a certain voltage, below which is the average voltage of the noise, then we can identify an intelligent signal of pulses coming through. That intelligent signal has an energy. . . .

That analogy of energy is that which surfers use to ride the wave, having had to predict successfully the pattern of positive suitability for poisitive out of the randomness of those arriving at the shore. Or the currents of wind that will carry a glider up to enormous heights, the pilot having to recognise the patterns of updraught.

For the purposes of exploration, imagine there is no intelligent signal: we will lower the voltage down till the peaks of random noise break through, and we will detect points of energy in the signal. If we mistake the positive peaks of that random signal for something intelligent, and amplify them, and attempt to predict any anti-randomness in the signal and harness their positivity in preference to the noise and the negative, it is still an energy of positive use, because the ordinary and the noise oscillations are thrown away. I accept that observation of events can be subject to such self deception, but if they are understood to be positive, then the resulting positivism can be self-producing and leading to the very thing we're trying to prove doesn't exist. If the positivism is amplified and multiplied by a significant proportion of population, the creative force happens.

Perhaps its in this way that systems choose a mechanism by which a creative force arises out of randomness, from the level of fundamental particles right the way through to deluded humans . . . who, because the force exists, even if it is only thought into being, :o aren't deluded at all.   ;D  8) because the thought has become real.

This is the energy, and magic, of God.

However another analogy comes from AM radio. The airwaves are full of electrical signals of which we are entirely unaware. Whilst Maxwell predicted them, none thought them visible until Hertz's famous experiments with a tuned spark gap. With Amplitude Modulated radio, a carrier wave is sent out, of which we are entirely unaware. It is an energy, to which a tuned circuit can be synchronised. If we vary the intensity of the electromagnetic vibrations according to an intelligent signal, pick up the vibrations with a tuned circuit and feed it to headphones, we won't hear anything because the negative values of the carrier signal cancel the positive.

It's only when we pluck out a whisker from a cat's cheek ;D and touch it upon a sensitive crystal, such as tellurium, that we can eliminate the negative and detect the positive. Better still, turn the negative to positive! It's in this way that the intelligent signal shines through upon a formerly invisible carrier. People without the cat's whisker can't beleive that this signal exists, whilst to those to whom the cat makes one available available, hear the radios station loud and clear.

(MM - sorry I'm being most cheeky :D in reference to cats . . . for younger readers a piece of bent wire was used in reality in a crystal set)

The point is that however one does not want to believe it's really happening, there is a creative force in nature which creates by processes of construction and destruction in which overall successive constructive forces have added together so as to allow us and all that we know to exist  . . . and which through consciousness of circumstances people with faith have found can make a positive contribution to our lives. The fact that the force can be thought into existence, and exist in reality even if only because we think it in the abstract, is shocking but, however, demonstrates the power of prayer together with patterns of positive behaviour set by knowledge of "God".

The fact that we have all had contact with organs and share a common interest would not have occurred without systems of reverence and instruction relating to that force causing buildings to be erected housing objects of common interest. The energy of creative force is at work . . .

Best wishes

David P

[MusingMuso]

:-)

I can see that this is causing some fun.

"Love knows no laws" - neither did the waves of the Japanese Tsunami.


However another analogy comes from AM radio.

It's only when we pluck out a whisker from a cat's cheek ;D and touch it upon a sensitive crystal, such as tellurium, that we can eliminate the negative and detect the positive. Better still, turn the negative to positive! It's in this way that the intelligent signal shines through upon a formerly invisible carrier. People without the cat's whisker can't beleive that this signal exists, whilst to those to whom the cat makes one available available, hear the radios station loud and clear.

(MM - sorry I'm being most cheeky :D in reference to cats . . . for younger readers a piece of bent wire was used in reality in a crystal set)

==========================


Dear David,

I am distraught; not just because I don't really understand a word of what you wrote, but because I now have two traumatised cats, (sans whiskers), who probably think that their God has forsaken them. The AM radio refuses to work.

The only bit I think I understood, was the part about the waves from a Tsunami. They may not have understood law, but they would certainly be subject to the laws of waves.

Something intrigues me about the tsunami which hit Thailand (etc).  We talk about prayer and even telepathy, but the people were stupid enough to stay put. The elephants meanwhile, moved to high ground long before the waves struck.

Best wishes,

MM

[KB7DQH]

In re: "Crystal" radios... The first one I made together using 1N34A diodes...Yes, diodes in the plural... By experiment I discovered that three in parallel was optimum for the design I chose to build, (essentially adding a parallel-resonant tuned circuit "ahead" of the schematic pictured in David's post ;) operating more efficiently than with one or two, adding a fourth brought the efficiency of the detector to "worse than one"...  Being roughly 16Km from the transmitting towers of the stations I could receive with this apparatus, audible reception  possible with around 12 feet of antenna wire and using the ground rod provided for the telephone.  Adding another hundred or so feet of wire meant that if all else in the house were silent it could be audibly heard throughout the structure, much to the consternation of a young friend my mother had the occasion to babysit, when told that "it ran with no electricity and couldn't be turned off" ;D  ;) The earpiece was some marvelous construct of the Western Electric Co... and not unlike the mechanism used in sound-powered telephones...

As far as the Elephants go, one could review my post in the "May Battle Begin"  http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,1227.0.html
thread and see what I contributed there, as it is applicable here :o   In light of the information presented in the links I refer to and quoted from,  it may be relevant to claim that on one occasion I was close enough to one lightning strike to have "heard" the flash as I saw it, the other time I observed a ground strike much closer to me, but did not experience the same phenomenon as the cooling fans from the wireless communications apparatus shelter would have made the phenomenon imperceptible...  Moreover recently I have had the most marvelous dreams associated with solar flares...

Eric
KB7DQH

[David Pinnegar]

Dear MM

:-) In the enreddened quote what I'm saying is wholly unintelligible . . .

What I am describing is a process in a language of information theory which describes the process of selection of special events in one's life as extraordinary coincidences of low probability in which circumstances have conspired to enable people to have helped another, having been in the right place at the right time and willing, like the Samaritan crossing the street, to have heard what the circumstances wanted him to do and done it.

This is akin to Jesus saying "Who are my brothers and sisters? Those who hear my father's words and do them".

The process by which we recognise our capacity for such events, to seize the moment by chance, for instance that moment when the owner of the white donkey was approached by the stranger to be told that his master needed the white donkey and let the donkey go, and to encourage good to come out of them is rather like the selective breeding of crops, generation by generation, event by event, selecting the desired qualities of crop, such as Drought Resistant Maize being encouraged by the Bill Gates Foundation.

Above, I have made two propositions from contrasting premises but both of which lead to the same result.

The first premise is that "constructive events" which come together through positive behaviour, by particles or people, are brought about by reason of a "Creative Force" which Genesis 1 defines as "God" and which, according to some, may or may not exist. Above, I chose to describe three events in life which appeared to be the work of that creative force coming together. I have made the proposition that circumstances are conscious. The interaction of circumstances, being like an entangled mesh or tight-rope-walker's safety net, carries waves of effect of circumstances causing result in other circumstances and, as each person or groups of people have their cirumstances attached and behave as a result of those circumstances, and as each person or groups of people is or are conscious, then the circumstances attached to them carry consciousness and are conscious. The proposition therefore is not unreasonable. The coming together of the Creative Force, the work of God, has something to do with the consciousness of circumstances and in this way, the act of Prayer carries power.

I have compared this proposition in recognising such events in the course of ones life, in retrospect as a training for what might be happening in the present and the future, to extracting the intelligence from information theory, for instance from an electronic signal, although it could easily be a mechanical vibration of elephantine proportions in the ground or a sound in the air, either in the spirit of Shannon's Theorem in the nature of extracting the intelligent signal from a noisy background, or from extracting the intelligent signal from a carrier wave in AM radio.

However,  I have also looked at the result of selective breeding of random events, on the proposition that there is no God, no creative force. The three events I described may just be rare occasions when events of low probability came together on the natural spectrum of randome events. I have compared this to looking at a noisy signal, of pure noise. In that noise, random peaks occur. I have proposed that the events I have described are particular peaks of inverse probabilities of events: they were not caused by intelligence of circumstances, nor of the Creative Force. In that circumstance I have compared the situation to a surfer looking for the right wave for the right point to enter the water on a series of random waves with the intention that the wave chosen will carry him far.

It is the intention which makes the event conscious, in the same way as the crop is bred, one wave after another of generations, to choose that seed to produce the desired qualities.

If by the understanding of Christ's Second Commandment, the first having no meaning because there is no God, one can choose the peaks of positive occurances out of the random noise of daily events and continue to be aware for them to reach to them when they come, like the surfer on the sea. Accordingly, because we consciously select such events to encourage within our lives, they have a force in consequences, and behave as a Creative Force. We become the agent of the creative force and in this way, there is a God, and Christ is its agent in conveying it in our tradition.

So if there is a God, there is a God, but if there is not a God, Christ and through Christ Christians think God into existence and God is a reality by thought and consciousness. Perhaps because we are conscious, there is a God to know, because of our capacity to recognise the Creator Force.

We look at Genesis 3* and think of the fall of man as having to suffer growing his own crops to eat rather than merely being fed like children, in the spirit and inconvenience of material food to eat. Our having to grow material crops was a common theme and both Quetzecoatl and Dionysus shared the attributes of spreading agriculture teaching us to grow food and being the fertility god. Of course in our debased debauched material world, whenever fertility is mentioned, we think of sex and phallic symbols. OK . . . they had both . . . but we only know both. These deities were talking of fertility on another level, as Genesis 3 is upon having eaten of the Tree of Knowledge: the growing of crops was a matter for crops of knowledge, crops of the mind and the way of The Path through The Garden, leading us to the teachings of Christ, the crop of patterns of behaviour chosen to be nurtured by the mind that brought and brings mankind from the world of animals to the world of civilisation.

Of that, organs and Houses of God are symbolic. Recognition of God, is not only rational and comprehensively understood from examination of events and consequences from first principles as in this thread, but is the hallmark that distinguishes civilisation.

Destroy the organs, destroy the churches and you allow the weeds to grow, and civilisation to dissolve into a mere morass of sex and food driven animals.

In the alternate to people coming to self-civilization through understanding of the laws of God, they are controlled only through the laws of man as enforced by Big Brother. What do people want? You choose . . .

Best wishes

David P



*(David - thanks for correcting my former references to Genesis 2! It was in the spirit of the consequences of Genesis 2 - many discount Genesis for the apparently different two creation stories)

[KB7DQH]

Destroy the organs, destroy the churches and you allow the weeds to grow, and civilisation to dissolve into a mere morass of sex and food driven animals.

It could be worse than that... far worse...

Our Planet Earth is now in the process of a dramatic transformation;by altering the electromagnetic skeleton through a shift of the geomagnetic field poles, and through compositional changes in the ozone, and hydrogen, saturation levels of its gas-plasma envelopes. These changes in the Earth's physical state are being accompanied by resultant climatic/atmospheric, and biospheric, adaptation processes. These processes are becoming more and more intense, and frequent, as evidenced by the real time increase in "non-periodic transient events"; ie., catastrophes. There are reasons favoring, or pointing to, the fact that a growth in the ethical, or spiritual quality, of humanity would decrease the number and intensity of complex catastrophes. It has become vitally important that a world chart be prepared setting forth the favorable, and the catastrophic, regions on Earth taking into account the quality of the geologic-geophysical environment, the variety and intensity of cosmic influences, and the real level of spiritual-ethical development of the people occupying those areas.

http://tmgnow.com/repository/global/planetophysical4.html

What I quoted was a single paragraph of the conclusion of a much longer article... certainly well worth reading and within the scope of the subject under discussion ;)

http://tmgnow.com/repository/global/planetophysical.html

Eric
KB7DQH

[David Pinnegar]

Our Planet Earth is now in the process of a dramatic transformation;by altering the electromagnetic skeleton through a shift of the geomagnetic field poles, and through compositional changes in the ozone, and hydrogen, saturation levels of its gas-plasma envelopes.  [/color]

http://tmgnow.com/repository/global/planetophysical4.html

Dear Eric

Thanks - interesting stuff on the subsequent pages listing the acquisition of material and energy acquired by the solar system, sun and earth as it encounters stuff on its travels through the local constellation . . . but wish it were true:
http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-11075.html
suggests that at least some of the evidence presented needs critical questioning.

In this thread, I have tried to analyse and deduce from first principles and not requiring reliance on evidence - evidence will often prove arguable.

. . . the world of civilisation.

Of that, organs and Houses of God are symbolic. Recognition of God, is not only rational and comprehensively understood from examination of events and consequences from first principles as in this thread, but is the hallmark that distinguishes civilisation.

Destroy the organs, destroy the churches and you allow the weeds to grow, and civilisation to dissolve into a mere morass of sex and food driven animals.

In the alternate to people coming to self-civilization through understanding of the laws of God, they are controlled only through the laws of man as enforced by Big Brother. What do people want? You choose . . .

Best wishes

David P