Organ matters - Organs matter!

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In view of the work of ICOMOS (International Council on Monuments and Sites) throughout the heritage, shouldn't this thread be worthy of continued attention? Of course it would be appropriate to move the last post and this back into the thread of DOA organ advisors. . . .


The ICOMOS publication http://www.international.icomos.org/quebec2008/quebec_declaration/pdf/GA16_Quebec_Declaration_Final_EN.pdf
is possibly a good place to start. It's interesting that it does not include sound in its examples of intangible components of Heritage.


Best wishes


Forum Admin

Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 19, 2011, 07:28:39 PMWell, yes it does. But this is what it appears to be from the photograph. I doubt that this is actually the case, but if not, there is far too much space under the Harmonic Flute drawstop....

:-) Yes - I thought likewise which is why I thought it worthy of drawing attention, particularly on account of its provenance. A very curious photograph in such a place . . . and no-doubt someone somewhere has an explanation . . . ?


Best wishes


David P

[Numerous posts followed earlier mention of Christchurch Priory which clearly demonstrated that people are enthusiastic about pipe organs but which in their volume appropriately became a topic of their own http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,772.0.html]

[Post orphaned in the topic split - Forum Admin]

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 17, 2011, 10:25:50 PM

Quote from: pcnd5584 on July 17, 2011, 09:17:12 PM
apparently you have forgotton that the main purpose of the Grandes Orgues in a French church is not to accompany either a choir or the congregation, but to provide voluntaries and other (usually improvised) organ music during the services.

I wasn't thinking of rôles, merely physical layout. I had quite forgotten the Nave organ. In this case, I would have to ask - why tracker action at all?

On the other hand, some extremely complex layouts are still possible with tracker action - see http://www.mander-organs.com/portfolio/peachtree.html. However, here, clearly, the trackers run under the sanctuary floor - clearly impossible with an organ elevated in a gallery with an isolated nave division in a triforium. Admittedly, there is also a 2m/p West end organ (playable electrically from the East end console) but I suspect that, in that building, it's more a luxury than a necessity.

Incidentally, how does the organ at Chichester work? I think it's tracker action, but clearly it's in the North Transept arch, on a gallery, with the Nave division in the South Nave triforium, so that can't be tracker - and does one then have a problem with one action being faster than another? Reminds me of the organs at San Lorenzo del Escorial - merged from four (IIRC) into one by Organeria Español with electric action and a huge five-manual console up in the chancel, with a simply horrendous lag on the Nave organs.

Interesting too that the distorted ovals become perfect circles when in proper line . . .

Quote from: Jonathan Lane on July 17, 2011, 12:56:05 AM. . . Keith Hearnshaw are superb at conversing with children and demonstrating the organ.

Very good suggestion - possibly the ideal person for the documentary . . .

Quote from: Jonathan Lane on July 16, 2011, 09:15:42 PM
What is the purpose of an organ in a church, that is my fundamental question?  The answer has to be to lead and enhance the worship.  If it doesn't develop through time then it ceases to do that, and does become merely a museum piece.

Dear Jonathan

This is a particularly fundamental issue which sometimes one might be excused for not receiving enough attention. Often an instrument that leads a congregation well gets changed simply on the whim of an organist, or in academic places, a fashion of curriculum in playing a different concert or teaching repertoire . . .

The "why" that you identify is the very reason why this forum began with the inclusion of an Atheist's Corner for which it is criticised in some quarters and perhaps instead it should be relabelled "Phiilosophers' Corner" possibly to avoid offending sensibilities. But nevertheless, the why of why we make music and how and why we believe that the organ is a valuable way to do it must go towards the reasons for organs' use and preservation.

I am not always certain that those in the decision making process relating to organs follow a philosophy in decisions relating to music akin to the parallel but better understood world of listed building preservation in which academic principles of good conservation practice are widely known and followed.

Post http://www.organmatters.com/index.php/topic,730.msg3211.html#msg3211 starts a thread upon the subject "Certainty of Place" identifying churches as landmarks and the sound remembered from them as landmarks also within the mind. In historic building and landscape preservation, common phrases are "Power of Place" and "Spirit of Place". To consider an organ, especially in the case of one built for a particular place at the time of building of a place, devoid of carrying the intangible elements of Spirit, Power and in the case of a Church, Certainty, is likely to lead to what future generations might consider to be an inadequate decision. As you say, this does not automatically require stagnation.

Best wishes


Forum Admin

Dear Eric


Thanks so much for keeping eyes open for examples of this - hopefully when churches who are considering buying a digital electronic organ or investing heavily in computer simulation, they might find threads like this on this forum and see what people have done, been there and got the T-shirt and then done for the church what they should have done in the first place.


On the other hand, just as "Kendrickism" has a place proved by the numbers of people who then discover more traditional liturgy, so the electronic instrument here kept the spirit of organ music alive enough for it to survive. It's for this reason that this forum permits and encourages discussion of electronics as in the end they lead back to pipes . . .


Best wishes


Forum Admin

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 12:32:22 PM
As for Albi, it's so mucked about with... the 1970s rebuild was a disaster. It's not in any way the same as it was after Moucherel rebuilt it all those years ago, the specification doesn't make sense (certain stops plain in the wrong place), some of the voicing is obviously neoclassical and the destruction of the Puget instrument (which was, I am told, of pilgrimage quality, right up there with St Ouen etc) also grates. At least St Maximin is largely as built, has never been romanticised, has never had quality romantic material destroyed, has never had obviously neoclassical-style voicing...

I cannot comment upon the degree of unsubstantial opinionation in other aspects of the post but certainly to my direct experience, St Maximin is indisputably superb but so too is Albi, the philosophy of rebuilding of which was very clear and the firm involved and their voicer, who I know personally, was supremely expert. It is an organ which is a landmark and one that aurally demands attention.


The 1970s rebuild was a tonal triumph and a landmark of its day and certainly not of the nature that the writer above claims. The Moderation team of this forum are frustrated at the continual need for checking the writings of the above contributor.


Forum Admin

Moderators have expressed concern at the long post above but I have approved it as discussion of the foundations of organ design is so educational particularly to the upcoming generation and, hopefully, leading to exploration and enthusiasm for such.


The thread has strayed from a minimum or a small organ specification but these posts can always be split out onto a new topic in due course and PCND might contemplate this at the appropriate time . . .


In relation to pedal stops, experience at St Maximin is interesting as between the Great and the Recit manuals, there's the Resonnance (amnesia on spelling - please excuse or someone correct for me if necessary) to which pedal is permanently coupled and which can be shared with the Great. Pedal has no dedicated stops. Clever concept which could be more widely employed. I'd love to experience the Dom Bedos instrument at Rieti.


Best wishes


Forum Admin

Hi!


When visiting the forum from time to time I'm often intrigued at the variety of Google Ads. I suspect that they are not always served on a function of page content but also on the general interests of people looking at pages. Certainly if one has a Gmail account, the ads seem to appear from time to time irrevant to the content of the email and possibly as an assumed function of correlation with the interests of the other person with whom one is corresponding.


If this theory has any foundation then perhaps ads for Will Writers might tell us about the age of people with interests in pipe organs, but a set of ads this evening includes
Property Lawyers
Commercial Law firm
Electronics courses
A hotel in the Holy Land
Drupal development, whatever that is
A password manager
Business cards
Kidney hospitals
Top criminal lawyers
Prosecutions - trading standards investigations
and
Injury Lawyers online


Finally, as I write, there's JoomlaWatch recommending watching and knowing one's visitors. Who needs that if Google Ads are giving us clues. If they are, the mind boggles as to the sort of people who are generally interested in pipe organs!


Do we have a lot of lawyers and kidney specialists amongst us, or a lot needing such services? The mind boggles!  :)


Best wishes


Forum Admin

This topic has been moved to FOR SALE and WANTED.

http://www.organmatters.com/index.php?topic=761.0

Hi!


I was contacted this morning by a researcher seeking people enthusiastic about the Pipe Organ with the intention of lifting the instrument out of the perception of that boring old thing in the corner  . . . On the spur of the moment I directed him towards various YouTube videos below as well as to Paul Carr. I also feel that Nigel Allcoat would be great and it would be brilliant if he might possibly be encouraged to join this forum . . . Sean Tucker should be another candidate . . .


Please can people add to this? It's probably the one thread on this site that can make the difference in encouraging a wider public perception of why the Organ really is the King of Instruments . . .


I am directing the enquirer to this post, so this really is the place to give details of any instrument or person you feel to be an important landmark . . .


Best wishes


Forum Admin

QuoteMatthew Copley talking about reed pipes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6pfY4ZYw1k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSf7-4t_SWc St Maximin in France unchanged since before the French Revolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPGDiA3fidA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bix-_RlXqs Albi Cathedral organ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi2pdYou-Rs French Baroque masterclass - registration inspired by St Maximin - David Goode giving the masterclass - formerly organist of the 3rd largest organ in the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHOcCLvUeH4 Young organist John Clark Maxwell, playing with a broken foot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOyMKVM0tvA Young Ben Scott who is returning to play on 13th August - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0FjU0Iqlhk


These are really examples of the King of Instruments . . . and hopefully might enable people to understand that the Organ is as
captivating as former generations found Steam trains such as the Royal Scotsman and Mallard, Aeroplanes such as the 747 and Concorde etc etc . But many organs are mere Cessnas . . . even they being enjoyable in a different realm.

Were you to be able to film in France then the Academie d'Orgue at St Maximin is between 19 and 29 August.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GyFn7Wmps8 is Jeremy Filsell, organist of the National Cathedral in Washington DC encouraged to play in the style I heard near St Maximin which I introduced to Ben Scott http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAy81I-0O6c through my video at L'Orgue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OARFBig_u9M

Paul Carr is an organist who I believe to be very enthusiastic and Mark Blatchly is often known to play lighter repertoire on the church organ, for instance Eric Coates' London Suite.

Perhaps anyone commissioning a new organ and their builders - such as Cranleigh School . . . or one of the Oxford Colleges with a new organ . . .

Hi!


Yes - Thanks for that explanation.


I thought it was of interest for members to see actually what people are arriving at the site to find, having found mention of the various subject matters on Google. It's hoped that where we can see people finding subjects on this forum, we can add information as necessary to make what people find here more helpful and useful. . .


Best wishes


Forum Admin


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[The following post has been orphaned from the post that instigated it as a reply - Forum Admin]

Quote from: Brian Daniels on July 09, 2011, 11:01:04 AMFor example many distiguished organists are advisers but most of them, I suspect would not be too happy with my hypothetical task of making new tongues for a reed stop without the old ones as patterns.

:-) I'm sure I'm not alone in suggesting that it would be beyond the remit of an OA to make tongues for a reed stop whether with or without the old ones as patterns.

It's when people get too close into the action of a subject of which they have only partial knowledge that, sadly, well meaning but ill advised results occur. I heard recently of an instance where repeatedly a set of transistors kept blowing. Were the electronic design to have been confined to the realms of an electronics engineer, ensuring the correct specification of components, protection diodes on electromagnetic devices, and a resiliently stabilised power supply, then the operation of the transistors would have been wholly reliable.

It's the function of a DOA to ensure that an organ is the subject of a teamwork of skills proportional to the technology, artistry and heritage of the instrument in each case. None of us would want to fly an Airbus a320 were the safety of the whole machine were to be assessed by only a turbine blade specialist or otherwise a wing hydraulics engineer. The job of the safety engineer must not be of interfering with the software of the fly-by-wire flightdeck computer but should be one of the coordination of the team.

This forum has recently received the benefit of the interest and report of a DOA performing just that function and in an excellent manner.

Best wishes


Forum Admin


Postscript: I note that Barry Williams and Forum Admin have just joined the -1 Karma point club. Presumably we have made points relevant to the reason for the safety net that DOAs provide . . . .

[The following post has been orphaned from the post that instigated it as a reply - Forum Admin]



I apologise if this post is perhaps rather long winded but Moderators are aware of controversy which appears from the first post to have catalysed this thread, and for this reason it appeared relevant to explore a wider understanding of the real function of the relationship between commissioning body, consultant and solution provider as a management process.

Quote from: Brian Daniels on July 08, 2011, 11:41:49 PM
I think the role of Adviser and Consultant has become blurred.

Um . . . I'm not at all sure that this post is not blurred.

QuoteYour GP could be regarded as an 'adviser' who ,if you get a chest pain, might refer you to a 'consultant' who is good at cutting you open and fixing your heart. You need another consultant to fix your hip joint, prostate and so on. Most organ builders are good at universal tasks but there will always be experts.

I'm not sure of the point being made.


However taking the analogous historic building preservation situation there are jobbing builders (in the organ world who can tune an instrument and repair some trackers) who will (wrongly) use a 4:1 sand and cement for stone pointing a wall and there are enlightened master builders who will recommend a 1:2:6 or 1:3:9 mix of cement:lime:sand to point a wall.

In the organ world the DAO is akin to the local authority Conservation Officer. A building Conservation Officer will be expected to know when it is appropriate to render a porous and spalling stone wall of little visually functional value and when it should be repointed with a lime mortar. He should know not only what to do but also possibly which craftsmen have the knowledge to carry out such works without requiring constant supervision or training on the job and which firms have the expertise appropriate to the job on hand and in house.

He should be able to report back to his Authority that he has confidence in the capacity of those on the job to take the right decisions and their willingness to call in the relevant expertise if necessary. If he does not have that confidence, he will be authorised to keep a much closer supervisory eye upon the situation and the job as it develops.

Inevitably the best results are where there is cooperation - a partnership between client, adviser/consultant/supervisor/foreman and master builder/craftsman/tradesman. In each case there will be a symbiotic relationship at all levels in the task management chain between knowledge shared and specific expertise depending on the situation and circumstances.

All will always be subject to commercial influences. In remarking to an organ builder friend that I was impressed by a certain instrument in a school chapel in the Thames valley he informed me that it was only good on account of the Organ Advisor having ensured the builder gave adequate space to the pipes - other instruments by the same builder having been tonally less successful on account of cramming a larger specification into a smaller space. The wisdom of the OA had prevailed to ensure a better result and the dynamic of that relationship between client, advisor and builder will always have strengths and weaknesses according to the cleverness, wisdom and experience of each.

QuoteA good test for anyone thinking of becoming an adviser or consultant might be to respond to the question:
'You have a Trumpet stop with no tongues; how do you go about getting new ones made for a specific instrument?

Whereas the earlier part of the post appears to distinguish between and adviser and a consultant, this part of your post blurs them together.


However, taking the suggestion at face value, is not the answer to that is simply to advise to get in the relevant builder rather than buying the relevant metal and attempting to do it himself? What other answer could you possibly conceivably be thinking of?

As far as builders are concerned who might be experts, for instance a reed maker might be just the man needed for your job in hand but will not necessarily have the musicological experience to relate to a change of tonal specification for instance of what stops should be incorporated in particular for the playing of for instance De Grigny nor what nuances should be employed let alone how they can be incorporated into an instrument capable of wider repertoire and blend. Long live the DOA!

The relevance of a DOA in the administrative process is that a three legged stool is more stable on which to be seated than a monopod or bipod: parochial bodies acting alone or only with a commercial solution provider without an advisor of some degree of expertise are more likely to randomness of movement . . .


Best wishes


Forum Admin

Quote from: twanguitar on July 08, 2011, 04:11:43 PM
Surely he cannot really be suggesting that independent organ advisers are merely paid poodles of a church who will only be interested in " fulfilling the desires of those with a vested interest enough to pay the fee" and that the church will simply " get in a reputable independent advisor to write the appropriate report"?

Hi!

:-) Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify this . . . I was very particular to precede this within the context of being within the parameters of

Quotewhere issues of fine balance, fine judgment which could go either way, or taste, it must be difficult to escape . . .

I trust that no-one's feelings will be hurt as a result.

Even Barry has commented upon a case within the current Organs for Urgent Sale list that a decision to sell an instrument from a noble and reputable institution might be a case of "fashion" having been preceded by another post commenting upon a reputable and respectable commentatator having made a statement with the implication that would lead one to assume that the instrument was rather worn out by now . . .

The fact is that in balanced cases it is the _will_ to go whichever way personal tastes will lead and be led by whatever personal opinions are to one's favour depending upon the psychology of whether a glass is half full or half empty.

One purpose of a forum such as this is a matter of democracy offering a place for civilised and gentlemanly debate in which issues can be explored, difficulties and circumstances explained so that decisions may be based upon the wider perspectives of understanding and this thread is an open invitation to anyone advising on instruments or instrument or building curators and players, especially of any instruments coming up in the "Urgent for Sale" or "Organs in Danger" to join this forum and comment appropriately.

In the light of such discussion on this forum it was a courageous and impressively enlightened decision for a school in the south east of England to have delayed a change to an instrument, particularly as an educational establishment, to enable a year in which great musicological benefit is to be gained by the delay of the change.

It's in this sort of way that a forum such as this can be a source of wider considerations achieving better appreciation of the King of Instruments rather than fulfill the mere function of a talking-shop.

Best wishes


Forum Admin

Dear Twanguitar and Barry


Thanks for a couple of very interesting and informative posts here, from which no doubt readers will have a better idea of how hopefully good decisions are reached . . .


From a purely layman's standpoint the system appears to be set up to work well in so far as a DOA will be familiar with a wide range of situations and instruments on his patch and that experience must be generally useful especially over a course of time. A DOA who then advises a parish to obtain the benefit of a number of professional organ builders' consultations must be particularly wise.


The problem with independent organ advisors commissioned privately is that in issues of fine balance, fine judgment which could go either way, or taste, it must be difficult to escape from fulfilling the desires of those with a vested interest enough to pay the fee. This is the reason why a DOA is so very valuable with a wider impartial overview.


There are cases where on account of fashion those desiring change will utter murmerings that such and such and instrument should be restored by Bryant and May and, despite a noble and worthy heritage of the instrument, they'll get in a reputable independent advisor to write the appropriate report. The purpose of a DOA and Diocesan bureaucracy is to bring a wider perspective and well conceived result.


Best wishes


Forum Admin