News:

If you have difficulty registering for an account on the forum please email antespam@gmail.com. In the question regarding the composer use just the surname, not including forenames Charles-Marie.

Main Menu
Menu

Show posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Show posts Menu

Messages - David Pinnegar

#1681
Hi!

I recommend very much to readers the work of the Dutch historian Van Loon and in particular his book "The Liberation of Mankind", and upon reading this, no doubt his book on the Life and Times of Johannes Sebastien Bach may well be illuminating to organists.

"The Liberation of Mankind" is subtitled "The story of man's struggle for the right to think". It details how the Roman Empire adopted Christianity - and I suspect brought elements of the Christ story and teachings into line with all the disparate religions of the Roman empire, bringing a unity in faith throughout an empire materially falling apart at the seams. As an aside and not documented by Van Loon, requiring 60 ships of wood per day to keep them fuelled, the Roman Baths were unsustainable and it is obvious that when the wood ran out increasingly throughout Europe, the trade relationships that kept the empire together disintegrated. Accordingly, Christianity was seen as capable of keeping the bureaucratic networks together.

For instance the story of the virgin birth brought forward the followers of the old worship of Mithras into Christianity and the roman soldiers converted their allegience wholesale.

Whilst vested interest authors in the net deny that the Council of Nicea and years leading to it in 325-321AD did not meddle with the bilblical texts handed down to us, Van Loon points out that the supervisoin of the written word became a routine duty of the clergy and that some books were absolutely forbidden.

It is pretty obvious that there were processes of significant vested interests which coincided to make Christianity a common demoninator throughout an Empire riven by corruption and visibly falling apart. The adoption of Christianity was seen as the solution to keep the show on the road. It's no coincidence that Christendom centered upon Rome and it's no coincidence either that those who through near two millennia have pointed out the ways in which perhaps post Nicean Christianity might not have accorded entirely with what really happened between Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem in the first three decades Anno Domini have been seen as a threat and been progressively discriminated against and put to death.

The French protestants, the Huguenots were discriminated against after the Edict of Nantes promising them freedom in 1598 but merely resulted in a fleedom, thus circuitously bringing the family of Benjamin Henry Latrobe to England and America. Their family motto "Qui La Cerca La Troba" - "he who searches finds" would have been poignantly relevant to them as protestants having searched beneath the surface of what Roman Catholic doctrine had enforced upon them. Of course, of the ancestors of these generations, many dissenters had come back from Crusades having experienced greater mercy at the hands of their Muslim "enemies" than they would have shown as "Christians" to their enemies, and in this way been impressed at how more Christian spirited the followers of Islam were than they as Christians themselves under the Roman Christian banner and doctrines. The Crusaders returning from entering Toledo in 1180 had discovered that the Arab muslim libraries had preserved the Greek myths and that these, although polytheistic, accorded with the story of Genesis. This had been the catalyst of the Renaissance and the translation of Genesis 6 and Job 1 and, of course, the wandering minstrels who sang playing Citern and Tambour, akin to the Citar and Tabla, were the Troubadours - the people who had Trouba - Troba - Trova - found.

Finding what others don't want you to find is  :D troubling! So whilst heretics of the Catholic church were put to death and burned at the stake, especially for instance at Albi, where later the Cathedral was to house one of the greatest organs of our time, such activities were considered quite normal by the Calvinists and Anabaptists too - so for instance, one could not visit Geneva uttering unthinkable things to Calvin without being put to death. If you were Servetus, one did not not want to receive a letter from Geneva from Calvin inviting you to visit. Meanwhile as a free thinker such as Giordano Bruno you could not expect to be invited by Giovanni Mocenigo to Venice without subsequently an unwelcome visit to Rome to be burned.

So it was that were you to travel through Germany where some towns were catholic, some protestant, were you to express the wrong opinion in the wrong place, your travels would be cut short.

In researching temperament I came across
http://sites.google.com/site/bachtuning/theology
where it is apparent that in defence of Meantone tuning the perfect thirds were considered to be symbolic of the Trinity and any other tuning was heretical. To tune to anything but Meantone would send you to the stake.

For once I quite agree that Equal Temperament must be the work of the Devil  ;) and that therefore all proponents of Equal Temperament should be burned at the stake.  ;D

However, if Christianity is to survive, it is upon the teachings of Christ and not the edifices of religion that have been built around it. The arguments over "the trinity", virgin birth, death and resurrection and a few other things have hardly led to the creation of Heaven on Earth intended by the doctrines of Love thy God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself, love your enemy and turn the other cheek to be slapped again should your enemy slap you.

All the arguable tenets of doctrine are only there as meditational focii or as carrots to induce unthinking people to follow in the promise of better things ahead.

"Love thy God" - what is God? Not in hard fact the Trinity - that is only a meditational focus - but The Immortal, The All Powerful, The Invisible, The All Knowing - in fact the all around us, all connected by the invisible strands of spiders' web in the dimensions beyond the here and now and the seen.

Many Christians of the indoctrinated sort have really forgotten their foundations. When asked "what is God?" they will answer "The Trinity", forgetting the real definition of God in terms of the "All around us". Telling them that God is more than "The Trinity" undermines the comfort of their doctrine on which they have built the edifice of faith in a God made in their image, and they will glare daggers no different to the fire with which Calvin had Servetus burned or as he wished Godspeed upon Sozzini upon his way to Zurich.

There are many that think that what is invisible does not exist.  For the past 100 years such people have not been supported by the findings of modern physics which relies upon dimensions beyond the three and time, and indeed it was by plugging in a fourth and fifth demension into Einstein's equations of General Relativity that Theodor Kaluza found Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism emerged spontaneously, so demonstrating the physical existence of the invisible dimensions of which users of computers on WiFi connexions rely all the time.

So users of WiFi cannot deny the existence of God - the Omipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Invisible. Not even Stephen Hawking could deny that. Perhaps it's God that he has been studying all his life even without realising it. The Omipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Invisible all result from the physical laws from the moment of inception of the Big Bang, from which by cause and effect and within which all have to work and comply. There are no escapes from these laws. In the beginning was the law . . .

Can we not see how "law" and "word" to a disconnexion of physicists, theologians and the man in the street? By the mistranslation and loss of meaning, and especially with the resulting disconnexion with the physical universe, argument has been brought into the world.

This loss of meaning in translation and transmutation through similar words is the curse of the Tower of Babel. From my studies of the Parthenon Frieze, according with the concepts of Job 1, this is the work of Hermes (Mercury) himself, the figure representing communication - rather miscommunication, lying, deceipt and thieving. He is one of the number of cynics, Hephaestus, Artemis, Aphrodite and Ares, who try to persuade the Chairman of the Homeric assembly of Gods, that humankind is not worthy of support.

In contrast to arguing over words, "law", "word", the intimate relationship with the physical world, focussing on the fundamental meaning of God as the physical universe can bring universal understanding.

Best wishes

David P


Postscript - Equal Temperament is 11th comma meantone, but the point of Baroque meantone was the 8 pure thirds. Even today I'm aware of an organ voicer who bemoans his boss not building an organ tuned with 8 perfect thirds and accepting an impure compromise

#1682
Hi!

Thanks for posting these details. Fascinating comparison. The equal temperament is cold, bland, banal and boring. The registration is enough to make me start thinking about investing in Hauptwerk with the St Maximin sample set. It's such a wonderful sound!

Best wishes

David P
#1683
Organ building and maintenance / Taboo
September 13, 2010, 09:28:40 PM
Hi!

It seems really absurd, and very unfair, that Peter Collins was so severely censured in the UK for having experimented with an electronic extension when churches in USA are taking advantage of services such as
http://www.ahlborn-galanti.com/Pipes.html

The pipe organ industry is shooting itself in the foot by allowing electronics manufacturers to take the lead, and thus control, whereas if pipe organ builders took the lead, the boot would be on the other foot.

I have the direct experience of managing an analogue of an unfashionable English cathedral style instrument of the sort that have been meddled with and are now endangered and rare in original condition, as they don't provide great and obvious "classical" facilities, which has been extended overtly and electronicly very successfully in a way that overcomes all the shortcomings of the original instrument without affecting its integrity. In this way, electronic tools can serve well the cause of conservation.

One of the reasons why I did what I did is because I am aware of a 1920s vintage Harrison and Harrison, which I regard to be more pleasurable and special, in a much better acoustic, than St Marys Bristol. Because its current curators despise it with a passion, it's endangered. But by adding a fourth manual, possibly with floating stops and couplerable to the existing three manuals, the original instrument could be preserved in tact and cherished.

In historic building conservation, certain principles apply which have not been applied in organ building. These include the concept that any alteration or addition should be identifiable as such and incapable of confusion with the original, and that the integrity of the original should be preserved. Certainly, removable electronics can do just that, but at the same time add greatly to the tonal resources required for artistic purposes in styles otherwise not permitted. Furthermore, a midi output on the console, without being difficult to add, would enable some sort of musical provision to be maintained when the pipe instrument springs a leak or a cipher.

Best wishes

David P
#1684
Dear Graham

Deliberately I don't publish recommendations as I'm not going to give away to purveyors of electronics boxes how they can notch up displacement of good pipes organs in lists akin to trophy hunters' walls.

However, I will PM you with some ideas. To some extent also it depends on your reeds and what you are trying to achieve. A Tuba that eclipses almost the whole of the rest of the organ put together in true vintage Harrison and Harrison style, needs a different approach from a Vox Humana or Cromorne or blazing Trompette.

Best wishes

David P
#1685
Hi!

Quote
I am a Christian, and I know some here aren't.  I accept their views about the existence of God and his son Jesus Christ, but I believe I have been 'saved' by him.

I'm always worried that sort of statement might be a thermometer of religious fundamentalism. Often such statements are accompanied by an intolerance.

Knowing the person concerned here, I know that intolerence simply isn't the case in this instance by any far fetched stretch of the imagination but really these words become a matter of perspective.

We "see through a glass darkly, then face to face" - how I loathe the translation of dark glass as a mirror as a mirror is not the veiled difficult to discern image produced by a glass - but really perhaps what we are saying by "saved" is that Jesus has led us through the dark glass image to help us to see in the light, face to face. No more, no less, and this does not preclude other ways of seeing the reflection of the light around the corner - to argue otherwise would be like an astronomer saying that a refracting telescope is the only way to see the heavens and that reflecting telescopes don't work, are impossible or aren't allowed.

Galileo only knew about lensed telescopes, refractors, and thanks to reflectors, our searches of the heavens have been opened up so much by the Hubble reflector. Or perhaps it's like only searching the heavens with visible light, ignoring x-rays, infra red, or the radio frequency spectrum. In this analogy, religious fundamentalists would tell us that Jodrell Bank is the work of the devil. Indeed, the prohibition of knowledge, such as the acknowledgement that the earth is round, occurs often because the prohibitor of ideas knows full well that the knowledge or alternative viewpoint exposes an assumption and is threatening to the inadequate worldview that the prohibitor of knowledge holds fast to for his self justification or other vested interests.

The story of the Garden of Eden is fundamental. The religious fundamentalist clings to any excuse to stay within the garden and avoids the apple like the plague, and does not experience, and does not grow nor escapes the garden to go out into the world and populate the earth. Eating of the apple of the Tree of Knowledge shakes are safe and secure position in the Garden, but through doing so we are better equipped to go out and do good in this world.

Perhaps in saying "we are saved" we are actually given a telephone line to the garden so that we can ring up for advice in how to plant other gardens, and those gardens may exist even in our own hearts.

Best wishes

David P
#1686
Organs in danger / Re: Great little House(?) organ
September 10, 2010, 04:22:03 PM
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on September 09, 2010, 09:18:15 PM
I'll be honest, with the usefulness of such an organ being so limited, I'd just take the pipework and windchests and enlarge an existing 2m instrument by the same builder to 3 manuals...

Hi!

Actually an instrument such as this can be remarkably effective and it all depends on the voicing. A local church has a two manual instrument without anything above 4ft and in support of a small village congregation it's remarkably bright.

Not really helpful for enlarging an existing 2 manuals to 3 as this pipework is foundation, which the other organ will have already, rather than providing the colouration that one seeks from other manuals.

Best wishes

David P
#1687
Hi!

Ewbank Clark Gammon Wellers' Autumn sale on 16th September includes an 18th century mahogony case bentside spinet by Baker Harris London of 1760. 5 octaves and is on its original stand and music cupboard.

Oh how nice it would be to be able to curate such an instrument . . .

Best wishes

David P
#1688
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on September 09, 2010, 09:22:14 PM
Ye Gods

Hey! This is great news! Organs being imported into pagan polytheistic festivals?

QuotePass the sickbag... sadly, that kind of thing isn't going to provide more than a short-term boost to congregation numbers.

Yes - I'm not sure that my stomach could tolerate it either, but at least it's bringing young people into touch with the texts that teach "love thy neighbour as thyself" and "turn the other cheek" rather than "burn the Koran" which is neither loving one's neighbour nor turning the other cheek.

Best wishes

David P
#1689
Organs in danger / Re: Great little House(?) organ
September 09, 2010, 03:48:22 PM
Hi!

This instrument looks great. What would be interesting on a rebuild would be to divide the keyboard and possibly shifting up the Flute an octave to 2ft can be very effective.

Best wishes

David P
#1690
Miscellaneous & Suggestions / Organ as a cash dispenser
September 09, 2010, 03:44:48 PM
Hi!

Thanks for pointing us in this direction!

For those who have not followed the link, it's about a proposal to make a cash dispenser in the shape of a pipe organ. That should get good publicity for the organ as an instrument! Ironic however as organs are more usually seen as cash eaters than dispensers - I wonder if there has ever been an organ built for venal reasons which has ever earned back its investment?

As an aside, it really would be great if people placing links to external news sources might possibly be able to give a very brief synopsis about what the link is about. Apart from anything else, this will make the posting more relevant as far as search engines are concerned and therefore increase the probability that a posting will be picked up by the search engines, multiplying the efforts of all who contribute here in the cause of trying to breed enthusiasm for the organ.

Best wishes

David P
#1691
New Pipe Organs / Re: New organ for Taize
September 07, 2010, 05:04:15 PM
Quote from: hector17 on April 14, 2010, 07:39:17 AMThe Sub coupler also adds a lot of depth without loss of clarity. There is an either/or system with the stops which allows all the stops with the exception of the Fourniture and the Montre to be assigned to either manual I or II. This system, used in conjunction with the sub coupler,


Sounds like an excellently versatile and useful system. Perhaps this has been an inspiration from the electronic side of the chinese wall . . . and certainly on my concert instrument the ability to reallocate certain banks of stops from manual to manual is so very useful.

Quoteand the rather natty II/I treble and II/I bass allows a large number of interesting combinations.

:-) On a small instrument, divided keyboards are so helpful. I played Villefranche (Grinda 1790) on Sunday and then heard Olivier Vernet at L'Escarene (Grinda 1792) in the afternoon. I found these organs, which really should have divided keyboards being 1 manual, limiting - Couperin with Tierce en Taille, or demanding Petit Jeu with a Cromorne tune are really impossible - the only availability in this style being the Cornet - so they really need careful handling and a performer who can sustain the audience with total Grand Jeu throughout a piece. . . Olivier Vernet did brilliantly and the recordings by Claudine Grisi and Rene Saorgin are worth buying.

QuoteI do hope that I haven't dropped any clangers with our esteemed moderators in this post.

Moderators? What moderators? Moderation is not allowed as far as enthusiasm for the organ is concerned . . . Hope to hear more accounts of interesting organs such as this . . .

Best wishes

David P
#1692
New Pipe Organs / Re: A story that should "inspire"
September 07, 2010, 04:49:30 PM
Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on September 07, 2010, 08:28:30 AM
To be fair, some churches plain don't have the space for any decent pipe organ. I did hear of one case of a big RC church somewhere, seating 1200, that had but a pathetic horrible 2m extension bodge-job... they ended up with a Hauptwerk toaster of cathedral-like ambition and found it an excellent solution to their problem.

Um. Yes. Well they might find it OK for now, but as a 100 year investment . . . they'll have to think again.

Personally I give my concert organ 15 years of life - and that will put the original console electronics at over 30 years, which will be pushing it a bit. I really doubt it will last that long. Fine - with a training in physics and electronics, I'll be able to maintain it to some extent, but my sons won't - and expertise comes expensive nowadays so really electronics of any sort are a poor option for any church. Furthermore, on account of my own expertise, I have not had to spend on the aquisition the sort of money that commercial installations cost . . .

Put all this on a real footing without in-house expertise and one is looking at any electronics being bad value compared with pipe organ options, especially with so many instruments going begging nowadays.

Best wishes

David P
#1693
Dear Tony

I hope you'll put news of these in the general recitals section - and it might be worth trying to submit to organrecitals.com

To those readers who are looking askance at this post and wondering why anyone would bother with a reed organ recital, as I write I'm currently listening to a CD that Tony has very kindly sent me of his last recital. Very worthwhile -  a gental soundscape which can achieve grandeur when required. From this, it's apparent that these Saltaire recitals are really worth going to.

At the age of about 5 I was impressed by the organ as an instrument and my poor parents suffered their young son's desire to have an organ in the house. Within a short time they indulged me with a series of three harmoniums, one making way for another better. The first was a humble 7 stop instrument, the second a slightly larger French instrument which was a fine piece of furniture into the bargan and finally an American organ with an impressive range of stops for such an instrument - but tonally I think the French might be the nicest sound and it's such an instrument that Tony demonstrates.

Best wishes

David P
#1694
Hi!

Thanks for posting this.

I have written to the seller as follows:
QuoteHi!

This has been picked up by www.organmatters.co.uk - can you give a list of the stops?

As webmaster of Organ Matters, of course we are giving this listing publicity to help you to shift it, but Forster and Andrews were a very respectable organ builder and it is VERY short sighted of you to be getting rid of a worthy and competant pipe organ which will be substantially operable in a century's time.

We are living on the edge of a cultural precipice of unprecedented loss, and with the loss of organs and the rise of Stephen Hawkins, the invisible, all powerful and omnipresent will be lost too. So please decide to reconsider your decision to scrap this worthy instrument. It's for this reason why I have put the King of Instruments onto the concert repertoire - search YouTube "Hugh Potton Reubke". No "worship group" can inspire the thoughts of the Divine that that composer reaches with this instrument.

Please post this on the listing.

Best wishes

David P

Best wishes

David P
#1695
Quote from: KB7DQH on September 03, 2010, 12:37:01 PM
If those reading this subject are unfamiliar with Bradley Lehman...

http://www.larips.com/

That link will take you to his website...

Eric
KB7DQH

Hi!

Yes the site does explain things but people should not be misled by the temperament that Lehman derived by turning Bach's squiggle on the 48 Preludes and Fugues manuscript upside down. It produces the strongest tone colour (and not very strong at that) in the middle of the progression through the keys with three or four accidentals - and this makes musical nonsense. The idea of unequal temperaments has always been to result in the white note keys being as pure as possible and the black note keys having as much piquancy as is tolerable or to give special effect.

A right way up interpretation of the squiggle by Charles Francis gives a temperament very close to that already deduced for Bach's temperament by Dr Kellner, which I favour.

Best wishes

David P
#1697
Hi!

Ebay item
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290463722347
didn't sell and it looks like a competant instrument.

I contacted the seller remarking on the 16ft and 4ft Choir and Swell to Great couplers probably making the instrument rather rich in sound and commenting that I could possibly help any purchaser with speakers to make it sound really superb and he later bemoaned the fact that it had not sold. George1231 at hotmail.co.uk  is the email address if anyone is interested.


Quote3 Manual Digital Organ with 20 Channel Speaker System



Organ



The Organ was originally a Rodgers 330 American Classic although it was updated to a new Digital system by the Organ company Musicom. After the conversion the original stop list was kept the same although they were updated with new sounds allowing the instrument to produce a higher quality Voices. The Organ is equipped with a fully motorised Drawstop system and Piston Memory allowing you to save your desired specification to each one of the individual Pistons and Toe Studs.  The Organ is fully illuminated and has rolling cover to protect the inner console from dust.



MIDI



The Organ transmits MIDI messages via MIDI outputs. All the Keyboards, Pedalboard, Stops and Pistons send MIDI Messages. The Organ works very well with Hauptwerk Virtual Pipe Organ Software.





Sound System



The Organ also comes with a 20 channel sound system which consists of 18 Celestion speakers, 2 Bass Speakers, 2 Alesis Reverb units and 5 amplifiers (one for each section of the Organ). Altogether with this system the Organ produces magnificent sound.



Specification:



PEDAL

32' Contra Violone

16' Principal

16' Subbass

16' Lieblich Gedeckt

16' Violone

8' Octave

8' Flute

8' Violone (SW)

4' Choralbass

Mixture II

16' Bombarde

8' Trumpette (SW)

4' Clarion (SW)

GREAT

16' Gemshorn

8' Principal

8' Bourdon

4' Octave

4' Spillflote

2 2/3' Twelfth

2' Fifteenth

2' Piccolo

Fourniture III

SWELL

8' Geigen Diapason

8' Hohlflote

8' Voix Celeste II

8' Flute Celeste II

4' Prestant

4' Flute Harmonique

2' Flautino

Plein Jeu III

16' Contra Fagotto

8' Trompette

4' Clarion

Tremulant

CHOIR

8' Gemshorn

8' Gemshorn Celeste II

8' Gedeckt

4' Principal

4' Nachthorn

2 2/3' Nazard

2' Blockflote

1 3/5' Tierce

1' Sifflote

8' Krummhorn

Harp

Carillon

COUPLERS

8' Great to Pedal

4' Great to Pedal

8' Swell to Pedal

4' Swell to Pedal

8' Choir to Pedal

4' Choir to Pedal

16' Swell to Great

8' Swell to Great

4' Swell to Great

4' Great to Great

16' Choir to Great

8' Choir to Great

4' Choir to Great

16' Swell to Choir

8' Swell to Choir

4' Swell to Choir

16' Choir to Choir

4' Choir to Choir

Choir Unison Off

16' Swell to Swell

4' Swell to Swell

Swell Unison Off

Pistons:

Great 4x

Swell 4x

Choir 4x

Pedal 4x (Accessible via Toe studs and Pistons under Choir)

Generals 6x (Accessible via Toe Studs and Pistons under Great)

Transposer

Cancel

Accessories:

MIDI

Illuminated Music Desk

Bench with storage

Rolling wooden Protection Cover
#1698
Quote from: KB7DQH on July 21, 2010, 05:50:09 PM
Another perspective from which the subject can be viewed...  Do give it a read and see what we make of it...

http://heresyofthemonth.typepad.com/blog/2010/07/is-indifference-the-devils-playground.html#tp

Eric
KB7DQH

Dear Eric

How the . . . . (unmentionable) did you find and come up with that one?

Yes, I think perhaps it resonates with what I have been saying . . . that the fundamentalists in love with infallible interpretations of infallible texts are simply in love with a god made in the image of themselves in a comfortable mirror rather than anything close to understanding the God who made creation in his image and challenges at every turn.

Yes - the closed comfortable consensus - everything is fine as "we" believe it and nothing more than that needs to be done and "we" are happy with god made in our image, according to fundamentalists, born out of pure sin. If that logic is right . . . then that indifference arising of the comfortable consensus really is "Satan's Playground" in the spirit of that link.

Is this a thread common to all religions?

As far as I understand it, this is the true meaning of Jihad, the Struggle, the struggle within oneself to break out of the apathy induced by comfort and self satisfaction and the response to God who challenges. The God who challenges us to love one another places a lens through which this Struggle should be viewed and not interpreted in ways which lead to Hate and War, elements of the Greek Ares, and in Buddhism, one of the features of emotion to be excluded from life to achieve Nirvana.

So perhaps is this an area in which followers of four religions (including the Panathenaic worship of Athena documented by the frieze of the Parthenon), can agree?

That the Sufic view of Jihad can exist out of the interpretations of infallible texts is testimony and example to Christians to their ability to be able to do likewise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad is interesting in its mention of the Holy Grail and in particular Enoch, who's book the Freemasons were particularly keen to discover in the 18th century and, sending out James Bruce to Egypt, found among the Coptic texts.

If the reason for Atheism is that all the religions and factions of religion are seemingly at odds with each other and disprove each other, then perhaps they are not . . . 

Best wishes

David P

#1699
Hi!

A member remarked yesterday on the illustrations that I have used.

My idea of a lens comes through having tried to make sense of the Parthenon Frieze arriving to the monotheistic from the polytheistic and the Iliad in which all characters take no decisions for themselves but are animated by "the Gods".

In fact this animation is representational of the fundamental forces of the psyche, illustrated through the lens of each of the "Gods" inserting a component into Pandora which, we being descended from Pandora or Eve, we carry in our head and we carry the balance depicted by the debate on the Frieze as opposing forces in our mind, between doing the good thing and falling for temptation, these forces being controlled by the casting vote of our inner Chairman, the spirit of God inside us.

Each of the Greek gods provide thereby the focus, as a lens into each characteristic which has a part to play within our psyche. In such a mechanical examination of the psychological balance, this is capable of being viewed as an atheist philosophy.

But the components can lead to a better understanding of ourselves and, "as above so below", perhaps even of the Chairman Himself. So perhaps the view is of God inside out. Is such an atheist approach a view of God inside out?

In my youth I had contact with a rather strange lady on the Parochial Church Council. Later in life I repaired computers for her and we have remained friends. In her old age I look to her as a lady of God. She talks much of the influence on her life of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen St Hildegard of Bingen and also of the idea of Subud - http://www.subuh.com/subud.html

In not being able to admit the seed of God within us, we being born of pure unmitigated sin according to the young born again trainee priest, looking within to find without becomes a process disallowed. As a result the seed is prevent from growing roots and twigs within and then capable of erupting in branches beyond our frame, perhaps a description of Subud and a process capable of comprehension to all religions. 

Two day Lectures at Oxford might be of interest - 15th January 2011 "The Study of Atheism" - "The new atheism - Why here? Why now?", "Non-religion in contemporary Britain", "The Psychology of Atheism" and on 4th December 2010 "Approaching Mysticism" - "Approaches to Hindu Mysticism" "Approaches to Christian Mysticism: The hermit tradition" "Approaches to Sufi mysticism" "Approaches to Buddhist mysticism: devotion and meditation".

Best wishes

David P
#1700
Quote from: revtonynewnham on July 20, 2010, 09:58:08 AM- the church is here to "make disciples" - to try and introduce them to Jesus.  . . .

Hi!

Yes - just so - inspired by the Divine but run by humans for humans. And that is how other religions are also: they have to be. But there is a stage of understanding beyond the mere words of the religion. The words are a necessary introduction but through living them, one can grow through and beyond them. That does not mean superior to them, merely squeezed out through the other side of the lens or the pinhole of a pinhole camera. The words don't always directly say what they mean or what we think they mean: the words are always a perception of thought, a perspective which often has a different angle, and they therefore have to be interpreted through the reverse mathematical function which transformed them out of thought into words.

The image projected on the ground-glass screen beyond the lens is upside down and reversed left to right, depending upon which side of the glass you are looking.

The lens projects the image of the reconstituted light which has been reflected off the original object, but is not the object itself and nor is the light that object. It is simply perceived in the way in which the object has an impact upon the light. The light-rays describe the object and provide a better representation when captured by two lenses to attempt to capture the third dimension.

There are many who say that because a religion can only see one-eyed and that the image perceived is only two dimensional, then God is not real because they see only a flat image as a child's drawing on paper.

But there are many who, seeing the two dimensional image say that that is the real God, and that anyone else's two dimensional image is not pure. They fear that their Grade I listed heritage building would be impure if looked at from a different angle and that there would be calls for it to be de-listed. The great builder would not be visible and recognisable.

But, even if we see through two eyes so that we have the illusion of the third dimension, then the object blocks the light reflected from the other side so that we cannot see it. We cannot know all of the object all at the same time. And even were we to be able to whizz fast around the object, so that we could experience the whole of the object in the flash of a memory so as to perceive the whole seemingly all at once, we would not know the object from the inside. God is thus.



If we are lucky, we might get a glimpse of the inside through the glass of the window.

Only the thought is pure whereas the words are the language of man.

Whether lit by the moon or the sun

the Great Building is the same. The thought is unchanged no matter the light reflected from it, even if there is no light. Indeed if the light is too strong, we are blinded.

And that is what so many fundamentalists do to others, turning away even the curious, with a light that is too strong and casting illusory shadows of darkness which merely move with the light.

All portrait photographers prefer a softer light to better show the modelling of the whole subject, less visually understood in the light and darkness of a strong light, making even the subject squint. I have half a feeling that even God squints with the ferocity of light shone upon him. (But of course one should not personalise or sexualise the infinite.)

Perhaps travelling to India is interesting - a place where there is great indifference by the materialists (who, as in all religions, often pay lipservice to some sort of religion) towards the poor, but where basic human kindnesses can be very apparent especially towards strangers, indeed often moreso than we often see in the so-called Christian west. One finds Muslims, Parsees, Jains, Hindus, Brahmins and Buddhists who can look towards as no lesser men of God than others who profess to know God through Christ.

Best wishes

David P