Organ matters - Organs matter!

Hi!

Very interesting post - thanks Tony!

I think the problem on the reeds and strings that you identify might be a matter of voicing as I posted in another thread recently about why full organ tuttis don't add up . . .

The Viscount "Physical Modelling" - I have used a CM-100 expander and it's particularly good on mediaeval reeds . . . It really likes chiffing on flues but I'm not sure that I'd want a whole instrument built upon it. Perhaps I have not explored the reeds sufficiently but whilst good and sounding authentic, none have the brilliant bite that one finds on French reeds and which is well reproduced by other manufacturers.

Content - I have used a 220 expander box - truly excellent but chiff is not of the quint variety - it's always a semitone. Whilst this is realistic for some ranks, it's not throughout an instrument. This box has been superceded by the 440 and the limitation of the 220 may have been overcome. Having said this, the 220 has the best Voix Celestes of all and I use the unit for additions to the Swell / Recit as well as providing a nicely Germanic Echo manual. The box has also proved to be very reliable.

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: moshchops on September 25, 2010, 03:33:21 AM
Tuba Magna on 50 inches of pressure - it's the only way. No one will expect it from such a small instrument and you won't need (be able to hear even) the other ranks. Watch the congregation leap out of their seats when draw that one for the final verse...hey, it's what I'd do but that's just me  8)

Well that Ahlborn Romantic unit on ebay will do just that using a pair of special speakers that you'll hear on your visit to Hammerwood . . .

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: Holditch on September 24, 2010, 10:59:19 PM
Please feel free to bid, cash is a little tight at the moment and I don't want to start a bidding war!

I'll probably invest in something after the new year when I have the pipe section of my home instrument fully working, the current St Annes set of Hauptwerk with its incessant ping every 10 seconds will have to do for time being

Dear Marc

To be honest, it's a box that you would not regret pushing the boat out for, and it would be very very useful for your needs. Throw caution to the wind!

I probably won't bid but might offer £350 if it doesn't sell, and would rather you had it. I'm a little way off making the console I intend.

Best wishes

David P

Quoteif we were able to get an electric organ put in, it would be much simpler to repair if something did go wrong with it

Who's pulling the wool over these people's eyes? What's simpler, a blower, bellows held together with leather, wood chests, metal pipes and wooden sticks connected together by leather buttons . . . or multi-layer printed circuit boards with micro-spaced connexions and batteries on boards which rot and corrode the lot . . .

What I really hate to see is the online and paper publications of the electronic touts who score up their "installations" supplanting pipe organs, often making a facadist development of the organ case, their publications looking like trophy hunters' scoreboards. I also find the electronic manufacturers' literature patronising and appealing to people with an IQ of 90 or 95 at most. But there again, perhaps that's just the sort of person who would be daft enough to throw out the investment of a pipe organ for the lure of a fancy load of television set and computer circuit boards.

Can anyone get hold of the church concerned and direct them to this thread on this forum?

I bet some electronic tout with a vested interest is behind it suggesting how unrescuable their pipe organ is . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

In addition to the open console afternoon at 4pm I realised that we might be able to do a little more . . .

I am doing a standard house tour at 2pm (for which there is a charge) and over tea at 3.30, I will be playing French Baroque repertoire inspired by St Maximin registration and soundscape. This will include
Corette - duo for Trompette and Basse de Trompette
De Grigny - duo for Cornet dessus and Cromorne en Taille using Grand Tierce in the pedals
Couperin items from Masses des Couvents demonstrating Plein Jeu, Cornet, Cromorne, Tierce en Taille
Lasceux - Symphonie Concertante using Cromorne, Cornet, and Grand Jeu

If you've been tempted to try Hauptwerk's St Maximin sample set and perplexed at how to approach registration or trying some Couperin and thinking that it's bland, then this introduction might be useful.

It's often said that History is a Foreign Language . . . the French Baroque certainly falls into that category for us Anglo Saxons, but it's exotic and wonderful. However, rather than using the St Maximin temperament, which I beleive is akin to D'Alembert, I'll be using straightforward Meantone as I like the pungency.

Imagine 200 years ago, akin to Delhi's Olympic experience, a hot town with the smell of horse shit (possibly nice but pungent) and possibly worse (not nice) in the streets, and coming into a cool basilica smelling of insense . . . The music is a combination of heaven with the pungency experienced outside. . .

If anyone has any items on which they'd like to try the Seize Pieds Septieme on the pedals, it's available here.

By the way, I'm aware that certain French organists, composers and builders liked Septieme on the pedals - can anyone tell us more about that?

Please ring 01342 850594 if you'd like to come and all you need to do is to plug RH19 3QE into Google maps . . . or those confounded devices that people have in their cars with bossy robot women telling you what to think and what to do and which direction to do it . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

I use these units in the plural and can thoroughly recommend them. However, they are no longer in production and although in the past it was possible to change the chips for others to change stops, this is not now possible. However, I think that I may have a spare set of 201 chips, the originals from my original 201 unit which the previous owner replaced. So in theory, they might plug into the Romantic to turn it into a 201.

Of all the units, perhaps the Romantic might not be the most useful. However, good Tuba and Bombarde in Section A and in Section B 6 stops of exquisite quality - a lively windy slotted diapason, a flute, a 4ft and Nazard, 2ft piccolo and a good Vox Humana. I use the Diapason on the Great of my instrument, although suspect that the bland diapason which I did not like on the original Makin might blend better.

In fact, instead of thinking of it for home, if you can get a second midi manual on your Sunday instrument and the first manual with a midi output too, this unit would be very useful. There is also on section A a Violincello and Cello Celeste which, quiet, would suit your requirements well. The secret of the Celeste is to voice it to be barely audible but to just make the difference . . .

If you don't want to go for it, perhaps I should! I want to construct a 4 manual instrument for concerts outside.

Best wishes

David P

http://sites.google.com/site/bachtuning/introduction

Hi!

The other day whilst researching how tuning your instrument to the wrong temperament might have got you burnt at the stake - see the Atheists' Corner - I revisited Charles Francis' site. Charles Francis re-examined the squiggle that Lehman turned upside down (getting a back-to front result) and came out with a tuning scheme that is substantially similar to Dr Kellner's excellent temperament.

His site
http://sites.google.com/site/bachtuning/introduction
gave me a clue to something that I had suspected for a long time. In the Meantone, Kirnberger and Kellner unequal temperaments the keys with one or two flats are slightly purer than those with one or two sharps. This accords with the pure harmonics of trumpets in Bb or horns in Bb or F which might accompany an organ. With French pitch, certainly at St Maximin, tuned to 392, C is effectively Bb (causing the YouTube recording of the St Maximin Bach D minor to receive comments that it sounds in C) the instrument is there ready to be accompanied by a battery of natural trumpets . . .

Surprise surprise, the pitch is known as Cornet Ton - Horn Pitch!

Cammer Ton - Chamber Pitch - said to be 415Hz - but mathematical pitch is 425Hz - C at 512ft pitch being 1 cycle per second ? from memory at 15 degrees Centigrade. This moved up higher when concert halls were heated to 20 degrees.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

I noticed on the 100 stop specification on a Hauptwerk simulation sample set
http://www.silveroctopus.co.uk/prod02.htm
a Sesquialtera with 3 ranks at 17 19 22

One normally thinks of a Sesqualtera as just two ranks, a sixth apart, comprising the Nazard and Tierce 2 2/3' and 1 3/5', so that's 12 and 17 without the 2ft in the middle. The addition of the 2ft in the middle converts it, with the 4ft and an 8ft, into a Cornet. However, 17 19 and 22 is the Tierce, Larigot and 1ft. What should such a mixture be classified as?

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: revtonynewnham on September 17, 2010, 02:46:29 PMhome of the moderator of this list

Moderator? I don't think he's meddled more than once taking out just one word . . . moderation is certainly not allowed here . . .  only ENTHUSIASM!

Thanks to all who contribute such enthusiasm!

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

If anyone is uncertain about the way in which the Council of Nicea meddled with the texts that we have had passed down to us
http://thepharmacy.wordpress.com/image-therapy/the-lost-gospels-peter-owen-jones-bbc/
is excellent, shown on BBC4 this evening.

The way in which the forces of desire to promote a Christianity that meant all things to all men of the Roman Empire to ensure the survival and promotion both of that story as a religion and concurrently promoting the continuance of Roman supremacy is very clear.

Perhaps one should postulate that one should view all texts handed down to us through the lens of an unfiltering process and on each statement asking the question: "Does this lead us further closer to God or merely hero worship of this teacher for the furtherance of the man-organisation which depended on its survival and supremacy".

http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm is helpful as is
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html
When Jesus says:

QuoteJesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone.

he's actually urging people to think and exercise their intellect.

http://www.thenazareneway.com/index_essene_gospels_of_peace.htm is an extraordinary collection of texts of great poetry, wisdom and beauty. The sections
http://www.thenazareneway.com/essene_gospel_of_peace_Book3.htm
Laments and Prophecies written for a time when the thought

QuoteWoe unto them that join house to house,
that lay field to field,
Till there be no place that a man may be alone
In the midst of the earth!

should be relevant. These texts include what we know of as the Book of Revelation but it is apparent that the verses referring to the speeches of the Angels of Earthly Mother have been substituted for something else that is a close repetition of another section.

One normally finds that editing consists of contraction rather than addition. The following passage, part of which is so well known to all, is of interest:

Quote"And pray every day to your Heavenly Father and Earthly mother, that your soul become as perfect as your Heavenly Father's holy spirit is perfect, and that your body become as perfect as the body of your Earthly Mother is perfect. For if you understand, feel, and do the commandments, then all for which you pray to your Heavenly Father and your Earthly Mother will be given you. For the wisdom, the love, and the power of God are above all.

"After this manner, therefore, pray to your Heavenly Father: Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

"And after this manner pray to your Earthly Mother: Our Mother which art upon earth, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, and thy will be done in us, as it is in thee. As thou sendest every day thy angels, send them to us also. Forgive us our sins, as we atone all our sins against thee. And lead us not into sickness, but deliver us from all evil, for thine is the earth, the body, and the health. Amen.

And they all prayed together with Jesus to the Heavenly Father and to the Earthly Mother.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

It's worth looking at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tw1tl
"Is this the end of God?"

One of the most interesting findings is that the brain processes of Nuns in prayer and Buddhist priests in meditation are the same . . . so why in the search of God do the religions fight about it and say "this is the only way"?

Best wishes

David P

Dom Bedos organ in Bordeaux

http://www.france-orgue.fr/bordeaux/index.php?zpg=bdx.org

Organ recitals in Europe, mainly France and Switzerland

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.con.pre&idx=1

Hi!

I feel that this is an important area, in bringing up children as parents, in teaching children, in guiding teenagers and indeed in self training. It also means that at the time of maximum brain growth the brain should be educationally stretched as much as possible in order to open up as many neuron paths as possible.

Learning foreign languages, Latin, ancient Greek, translating Virgil and Homer have a particular value and are areas totally obliterated in anything other than what is seen to be elitist education. Dumbed down GCSEs and primary schools which teach subjects at snail's pace and no foreign languages at all are all failing the intellect of a generation. Furthermore, the Nuffield Science Project of the 1970s which taught science from an experimental basis was teaching in a way that sank into the brain better as actions, movement and result was concreted into cause and effect.

But it goes beyond this. Children can benefit so much by discovering a more peaceful existence through the injunction to "love your neighbour as yourself" and indeed, if my thesis that "God" is the "All that is", "What rules", "Everything around us that results from the laws of the Universe", rather than a fictional Big Daddy in the sky personified, to "love God". This results in being able to ask siblings to think about what they are going to do or what they are doing:
"Is what you are about to do going to:
1. give you pleasure
2. give someone else pleasure, then if so
3. give someone displeasure, in which case don't do it
and will it have the effect of someone else liking you better or not . . . "
I'm sure that this repetition of line of thought is helpful and I'm sure that play-acting re-enacting acts of violence with computer games or bang-bang-bang toy guns desensitises the subject to the realities of what those objects and actions do, enabling them to do such things all the more easily in real life. There are things in fantasy random thought land that occur in our brains which are constantly ruled out by the error checks or reality checks or sanity checks applying cause and effect to predict what the results will be. But once those processes are broken down by the neurons having followed similar paths before with computer realities or pointing a toy gun at a person and imitating a shooting noise, the error checks and reality checks can be all too slow to kick in.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Perhaps in the above I left out the operation of something else. Clearly in the brain there is also an error-checking mechanism, or a reality check / sanity check mechanism, or both. Sanity check might be accomplished by counting the ratio of the number of established neuron paths are being triggered at any one time within a thought compared to the number of novel paths being triggered . . .

When we dream, certainly the feedback from the reality check or error check mechanism is disengaged.

I was remarking to one of my sons earlier today how the freedom of neural paths in the brain enabled random thoughts to be tolerated, obviously modified by the error checking mechanism which was not in operation in the dream process. He responded that in schizophrenia the error checking mechanism must also be turned off as randomness of thoughts are then allowed to achieve reality status.

Is the conscious error check and or reality check mechanism the same when we are awake as when we are dreaming?

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: Holditch on September 20, 2010, 03:32:22 AMA 16ft stopped pedal rank would be great to add warmth and foundation to the sound;

Hi!

An interesting question. Certainly resultant 16ft sounds for the pedals doesn't seem brilliant and extending the pedal organ would help. I agree about enclosure also, that an unenclosed instrument should remain unenclosed.

This is a classic case where the integrity of the instrument can be retained were some degree of hybridisation to be permissable. On the manuals clearly a quiet stop and possibly a judicious reed would be helpful, as well as a true 16ft on the pedals. With that in mind, it would be absolutely riduculous to add all the stops available on
http://www.classicalorganscornwall.co.uk/exp440.html
but know from personal experience of
http://www.classicalorganscornwall.co.uk/exp220.html
which I have built into the 3rd and 5th manual of my monster that the Voix Celestes is second to none and the 16ft Bourdon is as real as they get. This would not undermine the integrity of the original pipe organ and one might consider judicious use of the Cornet (to be used with your 8ft Gedakt as foundation) and or one or two of the reeds.

Certainly, as far as I know, addition of an electronic 16ft to the pedals would not be contrary to IOB rules.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

In the old days of analogue organs, generator frequencies were used double up in variations for all the different stops, just like unit or extension pipe organs. Of course the Tuttis would not satisfy. Many brave members of the EOCS made analogue instruments with individual oscillators for every note of every stop and achieved remarkable results.

Digital instruments theoretically overcame the problem but so called toasters have always been renowned for disappointing on full organ.

I became involved in electronics for the reasons documented on
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/
I wanted to put the instrument on the concert platform as an inspiration and therefore it became essential to use a really top rate instrument.
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/hugh-potton-1/
was our first concert - I'm not at all sure about the MP3 compression so the recordings there are not entirely representative of what the performer and 3 instrument achieved. Since then the instrument has improved significantly in every way and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9usBggyS5Nk
and more recently with further improvements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe_eJ60PmtM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W2QdAOwhjY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi2pdYou-Rs
give an idea of the results achieved.

The other day a bad connexion on an amp taking the 16 ft open wood of the original instrument off to the "self destruct" low-frequency sub-woofer caused me to look at the original instrument again and its voicing.

With digital organs, we pull out the stops and each sounds as it should. But without the expertise of pipe organ voicing, the stops do not speak in the right ratios and so on full organ, they simply don't add up. It's partly on account of dynamic range of which the speakers are capable also.

I pulled out the Bourdon, then the Open Wood on the pedals - and there really wasn't enough difference between them. And the Choral Bass 4 did not sing through above the Violone and Octave. Then on the Great, the Posaune was not greatly above the Open Diapason and on the Swell there simply wasn't enough progression from the Violin Diapaison to the Oboe to the Trumpet and nor did the Clarion sing out boldly above. Having now given attention to all of these, the whole original instrument, without my further additions, is transformed. The next concert should be exciting!

http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/hammerwood-rscm-hunter/
are arpeggios on each stop of the pipe organ here
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/harrison-and-harrison is a 1920 vintage Harrison and Harrison
and
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/makin/ are arpeggios on each stop of the then three manual Makin before improved speakers and voicing.
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/ahlborn-202
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/organ/content-220
are two rather useful extension units.

Best wishes

David P

Dear Tony

Thanks for this clarification. It's so important for people to understand the logic behind assertions which otherwise lead people astray.

Best wishes

David P

[quote link=topic=189.msg561#msg561 date=1284502816]
Maybe we should get back to what was probably the earliest Christian creed - "Jesus is Lord".  Simple, yet profound.[/quote]

Hi!

I hope that you might forgive me in taking a modified view: I'm wondering if I might best explain the point by saying that Jesus taught us how to find God, not to find him.

Of course, finding God is easier if we find our teacher, but if we worship our teacher rather than his subject then sometimes perhaps we are in danger of missing the wood for the trees. In education today, if a teacher allows his pupils to worship or love him, then that teacher is in danger of losing his job.

Because of concentration of love for the teacher rather than the subject, in the classroom of God, many have become atheists having sacked the teacher.

The Council of Nicea has a lot to answer for.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

I did this first when I was 15, a Cousans 7 rank from St Andrews, Peckham. It was a week to dismantle with a friend and two weeks to rebuild. On my second organ, an 11 rank Hunter, it was more compact, more difficult and the extra pipes meant that it was 2 weeks to dismantle and 4 weeks to rebuild together with help from 4 students from the London College of Furniture learning organ building there at that stage. Having some help, including their tutor on tap, was a tremendous advantage.

No doubt an organ builder or two here can give better advice but hope the following tips might be helpful.

The first thing to do is to remove the pipes. Lay them flat, preferably, for transportation and be careful both with the mouths and the feet. Organ builders have pipe trays - perhaps you can improvise something. A flat-bed truck is essential for all aspects of moving. Having removed the pipes, you can dismantle the swell box and possibly remove the pipe racks. Disconnect the sliders - and when moving an instrument do be careful of the slider ends - they are easily broken. An organ builder will recognise everything, but as an amateur, and possibly to ease reconstruction with amateur help, number the pipes in rows, perhaps lettered A-H or so and number them from the left, row by row.

If it's tracker, carefully undo the leather screw buttons. Hold the eye of the top of the threaded rod so that you don't damage the pull-downs when moving. You'll probably want to replace these when you rebuild - you can get them from K-A, and you might need to drill out the holes to a larger diameter for your threaded rods.

Having undone all comnections to the soundboards you can then move them - you'll need 2, 3 or 4 people as they're heavy and then dismantle the action and frame. Make sure that series of items are numbered, or at least taped together with masking tape.

When you rebuild, bear in mind that windchests and the like are difficult to get to again - so now is the time to do any repairs. You'll find the numbering that you've done very helpful in rebuilding. It takes a lot of guesswork out of the rebuild. You might want to replace felts or leather where worn, and roller boards can be noisy. I quietened down my second pipe organ by using plastic insulation from 1.5mm and 2.5mm electric cable on worn rollerboards. Ideally it could still do with rebuilding of many moving parts, but there is a lot one can do to quieten down old trackers.

When you reconnect the trackers to the pulldowns, setting and levelling the keyboards can be fun. A couple of straight edge timbers are great tools to this and you probably want to aim for a tread of around 6-8 mm - not too deep and not too shallow.

It's a good idea to take the fronts off the chests and check that all is well inside. Similar the tops of the soundboards so that you can get at the sliders, check for any cracks which will cause runs if not filled and apply nice quantities of fresh graphite powder for the sliders to slide in. When reassembling, don't overtighten the screws. Obviously airtightness is important but not so tight as to prevent the sliders sliding.

Pipework - on the rebuild, you'll be wise to see if you can get an organ builder to help you for a day or two. Putting the pipes back on speech - you will find that they won't all speak well after the move - and regulating them for their new environment. A day or two of professional help won't break the bank. Perhaps getting him in to look at the start whilst it's in situ might help so that he can point you in the direction of any obvious pitfalls to avoid.

Best wishes

David P