Organ matters - Organs matter!

Quote from: David Pinnegar on July 20, 2011, 10:04:16 PM

On a serious note, the seller does say that the organ is "complete" and irregular keys on the manuals may be cured by a box of new leather buttons, although if the pull-downs are corroded there's more work to do . . . K-A whose link is on the front page of this forum can aupply such things off the shelf.

A tracker instrument is not rocket science!

Indeed tracker actions are not rocket science.  You may be more likely to receive a prompt delivery from Laukhuff or Heuss.

Jonathan

Quote from: barniclecompton on July 21, 2011, 01:18:03 AM
I still dont see any part of this that is going to come across as "fun" in the eyes of the public.......

Well, I do agree with this sentiment.  If we are not careful, we will get sidetracked into organ anorakcy!  I repeat an earlier suggestion, Keith Hearnshaw, superb player, very engaging, enthusiastic, the epitome of fun in the organ world!

Jonathan

Regardless of any particular issues with this organ, in my experience Vowles organs are in general very worthy instruments and far better than many instruments in small churches. 

Jonathan

Quote from: barniclecompton on July 19, 2011, 01:55:28 PM

Quote from: Jonathan Lane on July 19, 2011, 08:09:25 AM

Quote from: barniclecompton on July 19, 2011, 03:23:17 AM
Slightly off topic here, @ David Pinnegar-  you keep refering to "entertainment organs", surely ANY organ can be an entertainment organ? If you hold a concert on it, that is a form of entertainment.

Depends who is playing and what is being played!

Jonathan

But a concert/recital is a form of entertainment, no matter what and who is playing.

It was slightly tongue-in-cheek!  However, some recitals I have been to have been so academic they have ceased to be entertainment for all present!

Jonathan

Quote from: barniclecompton on July 19, 2011, 03:23:17 AM
Slightly off topic here, @ David Pinnegar-  you keep refering to "entertainment organs", surely ANY organ can be an entertainment organ? If you hold a concert on it, that is a form of entertainment.

Depends who is playing and what is being played!

Jonathan

Quote from: Barry Williams on July 18, 2011, 01:29:27 AM
"Looks as though we are back on the DOA/Consultant issue again!"

As I understand it, and PCND may be able to confirm or explain, there was a 'consultant' appointed by the church who dictated exactly what was to be done and how.  When that proved unsuccessful, the church had to pay to put it all right.  There was a legacy or gift and that money was used for the purpose.

It seems at least possible that the 'consultant' might have aimed at the wrong target in his or her design.  I understand that the organ builder was instructed, by the church, to work according to the 'consultant'.  From what PCND has written I infer, possibly incorrectly, that the problems were anticipated by some folk yet dismissed by the 'consultant', but found ultimately, to be correct, at at significant cost to the church.

If I have got this wrong please, PCND, correct me.

It would be interersting to know if the Diocesan Organs Adviser was involved in detail over this.  I doubt it, for once the faculty has been granted, many DOAs have no further contact - at least not until there is a further petition or formal request to the DAC for advice.

All advice given by the DAC and its advisers is on the basis that the parish church is the centre of worship and mission.  That is the law, as I have written before.  In certain places recital work is part of the mission of the church, so regard for that capaicty is right and proper, but only rarely can that be at the price of accompanying divine worshsip.

Barry Williams

Whilst there can be problems when someone who isn't accredited advises and the church decides to take their advice without question, I also know of a number of incidents when a DOA has advised work on new organs that fails to meet the needs of the church, and ultimately, if carried through, would have resulted in an instrument that would have been a burden on the church rather than a blessing for it!

Jonathan

Quote from: Brian Daniels on July 18, 2011, 12:03:04 AM
Looks as though we are back on the DOA/Consultant issue again!

Heavy tracker action has as much if not more to do with windchest design than tracker runs; important though these are. Long runs tend to induce excessive inertia rather than weight of touch. Unless of course there is so much friction at the terminations that the pallet spring rate has to be increased.

If what I read is correct I find myself asking the rhetorical question, 'If we can't get it right for a prestigious establishment like Christchurch Priory what hope have we elsewhere'?

Brian Daniels.

Thank you Brian, a very useful point, which most including me had failed to raise!

Jonathan

Perhaps the perceived problem the organ has in the eyes of the general public can be summed up, in part, by some or all of these observations:

- Organists tend to be a little eccentric (I include myself in this!)

- Music played can often be academic and unconnected ( for instance, the opening recital at a well known public school a few years ago where, not only did the organ fail, but the organist played such an academic (and subjectively boring) programme that people left half way through.

- Churches are often locked these days, and when they are open, people get such an unwelcoming reception, they never go near them again, particularly true if the visitors are under thirty!

- When people do attend church, the liturgy can be so boring (musically) that they have no hope in having any interest at all.  This also goes for slow and unrhythmic hymn playing,

Well, there's four to be getting on with, I think there are plenty more, and I'm sure they'll come to me during this morning's service.  I also have solutions, but rather than condition responses, I would like to see others' comments first.

I think, if any documentary is to connect with people, it needs to be a combination of high quality music/performers/instruments, but also include accessible and exciting music!

Jonathan

Quote from: barniclecompton on July 17, 2011, 01:08:49 AM
Ive only succeeded in getting two people into a church to hear the organ, and neither were very impressed. Ive had far more success having people listen and visit cinema organs.

Well, I have been doing this now for 30 years or so, but in that time, literally thousands of children and young people have had a go.  At my last church, the schools came regularly, they got a demonstration, usually in the context of a mock wedding.  Then, if there weren't two many of them, say no more than 30, I would give them all a quick go.

Jonathan

Quote from: barniclecompton on July 17, 2011, 12:50:39 AM
"I fear that even the mere sight of an organ in a church might have people reaching for the off button."
I agree with this quite abit, if you start off with that, they will turn off, and if you stick to that subject throughout the programme, and classical music, a vast majority of the viewers will most probably turn off. Try getting younger people into a church to hear an organ.....its pretty much a failure when you say the word church. Which is unfortunate, but true. Ill probably get shot down now on here, lol

It is strange, because my experience has been completely the opposite.  Youngsters love the sound of the organ, because it can be loud and exciting! 

I do think it is how you approach it though, and people like Keith Hearnshaw are superb at conversing with children and demonstrating the organ.

My philosophy has always been to get children onto the organ, even if they can only play 'twinkle twinkle', they love it.  I play some things, including things like Happy Birthday on the pedals!

Jonathan

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 11:46:32 PM

Softly softly catchy monkey... get people interested in the organ as a concert instrument and they may then become interested in it as an ecclesiastical instrument - but too many won't go near a church. I even read recently that something like 80% of professional organists now will no longer play in church - so what are the chances of getting today's yoof interested without showing the organ as a concert instrument?

I teach a nine year old who is fascinated by the organ in church, not from a particularly church family.  Also a number of teenagers.  I don't think it is anything to do with the organ being in church, but the manner in which organists relate to youngsters and others, and the welcome people get when they come into the church building.  Get them into the concert hall and they will stay there and miss a wealth of music for which the organ is best at, i.e. in the liturgy.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 11:46:32 PM


At what point in history indeed... difficult to say. However, at Nôtre Dame, the organ exists largely as built by Cavaillé-Coll (whatever the modifications made to it), so that would have to be one of the main candidates for the starting point of a restoration of this historic instrument. In my entirely subjective opinion, the more recent incumbents (from Cochereau on) aren't as significant as Vierne, good as they were and are. With the Pièces en style libre, the Pièces de fantaisie, the six symphonies and the Messe Solonnelle (and that's just for starters), Vierne wrote a vast amount of the present repertoire. Might it be sensible to suggest a compromise of a restoration, with a fully-equipped Skinner-style console, with all the more recent additions available to it and electric action for day-to-day use and the restoration (or construction of a replica) of the Cavaillé-Coll console with Barker lever-assisted tracker action and only the stops Vierne had access to? Such duplicate actions (with two consoles) exist elsewhere (Christchurch Priory among others, although I've heard that the tracker console isn't terribly good to play, with the detached electric console downstairs accounting for about 90% of the organ's use).

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here.  Surely if these voices are available on the current organ.  It is up to the skill of the organist to select stops that recreate best the Vierne sound, and if the organist is incapable of doing so, having a 'Vierne' console isn't going to make that happen.  A compromise can only ever be that!

Barker lever was only an aid to help the organist play on heavier actions, but the modern electric action has overcome this.  It is a little like buying a beautiful new Aston Martin and insisting it has a starter handle.

As for Christchurch Priory (pcnd knows this organ far better than me), however, a few years ago, on a trip to see the organ in the company of Paul Derrett, Geoffrey Morgan talked about the organ and showed us round.  I played the organ from the detached console but not the mechanical one.  Seeing the position of the attached console was enough to put anyone off, to all intents and purposes being almost in a different room!  I seem to remember Geoffrey saying he didn't like it compared to the Nave console, but my apologies to him if I misunderstood his views!

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 11:46:32 PM

As for

Quote
What is the purpose of an organ in a church, that is my fundamental question?  The answer has to be to lead and enhance the worship.  If it doesn't develop through time then it ceases to do that, and does become merely a museum piece.

Of course, that is entirely true - but there are enough churches make do with old organs in largely original condition.

But why should we make do?

Jonathan

Quote from: diapason on July 16, 2011, 09:39:51 PM
The local Viscount dealer, Geoff North of WM Organs in Highbridge, Somerset, might be able to help you out with bulbs.  I think this is a regular service job for him.  But better to install a pipe organ if you can! 

Will follow this up!

Quote from: diapason on July 16, 2011, 09:39:51 PM

Compton built some very fine organs.  I particularly like one of his small jobs - the organ in west Bagborough near Taunton.  http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=N05510  The original part of the organ - now the Echo - is 1811 Lincoln.  Compton added a second manual in 1925, keeping the beautiful Georgian case intact (but making it deeper) and keeping tracker action.  the whole organ is enclosed and its a beauty.

Nigel

The interesting and important factor at Hull is the substantial three manual Forster and Andrews was the basis for the work in the 1930's.  F&A had already enlarged the organ in 1908 to 55 stops, and Compton's 104 speaking stop organ utilises the F&A sound a great deal.

I miss playing it!

Jonathan

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 04:32:21 PM


Your first observation may well be true, but I fear that even the mere sight of an organ in a church might have people reaching for the off button.

However, to fail to attempt to get people to watch it, could be the same as descending to the lowest common denominator of reality shows.

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 04:32:21 PM

As for the second, of course it is my opinion, and of course, all opinion is entirely subjective. However, I would disagree with your assertion that "an organ has to be a living growing instrument, otherwise it ceases to be that, and just a museum piece" - it's one thing installing a new console, allowing for registration aids to be installed, but it is quite another to take a world-famous instrument, on which one of the great masters has composed some of the most significant works in the repertoire, and completely change the tonal character of the instrument (whether for better or for worse). Admittedly, Vierne himself had some very strange ideas about what should be done to the ND organ, but that doesn't excuse what was done to it long after his death.

But at what point of history should one consider the organ to be correct, that played by Pérotin the Great or that played by Vierne, or indeed Olivier Latry and the other current incumbents. 

What is the purpose of an organ in a church, that is my fundamental question?  The answer has to be to lead and enhance the worship.  If it doesn't develop through time then it ceases to do that, and does become merely a museum piece.

Jonathan

Yes, I am sure, but I suspect someone could come up with a suitable substitute (incidentally I need to sort out a similar problem here with a Viscount, or install a pipe organ!)  The Compton I used to play regularly was Holy Trinity Hull, one of the finest organs in the country!

Jonathan

If you want ease of use however, the Compton luminous stop knobs are the easiest.  One action can select and cancel stops in a way it is impossible to do on pretty much any other stop system.

Jonathan

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 12:32:22 PM


As I clarified in my later post, my problem is not with the organs at all. One of my all-time favourites is a 1905 Henry Jones (lightly modified by Walker in 1964) of just 13 stops, which sounds glorious in its huge barn of a church. Unfortunately, fill the church with its congregation (and it's packed every Sunday, with people who REALLY sing), and the organ is barely audible, but that's an aside. The chief problem, I feel, is with the public's image of the organ in church as a concept - which is why I feel it's important to emphasise the organ as a secular concert instrument.

Surely this is a reason why the organ in places of worship should be seen more widely, in many places in England, the organ majestically leads the singing on a Sunday, and is a delight to hear, but all most people know about the organ is what they see on 'The Vicar of Dibley' or 'Emmerdale'!

Quote from: Voix Cynique on July 16, 2011, 12:32:22 PM

As for David Pinnegar's suggestion of the van den Heuvel at Saint-Eustache in Paris, I'm not sure. Personally, I find its sound to be excessively gritty and unblending - and I find Guillou's playing and improvisation to be self-indulgent rather than approachable. There's too much of what might be termed gratuitous virtuosity there. His influence shows in the organs he's designed - I can't think of one that I actually like, they all sound too harsh to me. Rather, I would look to Cavaillé-Coll's best - Sacré-Coeur, Saint-Sulpice and Saint-Ouen, Rouen. With respect to PCND, the Notre Dame organ has been so mucked about with that its glories are mostly faded - unless and until it's restored to its original state, it cannot, in my entirely subjective opinion, be considered equal to the other C-Cs I've named (although I know Sacré-Couer isn't exactly original - it's not even in its original home).

As for Albi, it's so mucked about with... the 1970s rebuild was a disaster. It's not in any way the same as it was after Moucherel rebuilt it all those years ago, the specification doesn't make sense (certain stops plain in the wrong place), some of the voicing is obviously neoclassical and the destruction of the Puget instrument (which was, I am told, of pilgrimage quality, right up there with St Ouen etc) also grates. At least St Maximin is largely as built, has never been romanticised, has never had quality romantic material destroyed, has never had obviously neoclassical-style voicing...

This is your opinion, and your entitled to it, however, it is subjective.  I love the Rouen instrument, but also Notre Dame, regardless of what has been done over the years.  An organ has to be a living growing instrument, otherwise it ceases to be that, and just a museum piece.  I also thoroughly enjoy the sound of S. Eustace, and as for Guillou's playing, this is something I like!

Jonathan

I think the issue here is subjectivity.  What I like, other people won't.  What they like I might not.  A classic example is that I like large scale French Romantic instruments, and carrying on the Vox Humana theme, the Voix Humaine's provided by say C-C where some what different to those provided by say Clicquot, whilst they are both very French (I also like the French Classical period!)

Another example is the first recording of the complete Bach by Peter Hurford.  It was a tremendous inspiration to me when I was young and first learning the organ, but is arguably 'spikey' in terms of the instruments used.  My preferred option now is the Marie-Claire Alain recordings. 

Like Barry, I haven't had much experience of Hope-Jones, and that which I have had has been only in the concept of a rebuilt instrument, with much (more) recent material.  I have been playing for nearly as many years as Barry, but in that time I have not had the opportunity to hear anything close to what might be considered Hope-Jones.  H-J however, was an innovator and very influential in his time, and I would never rule anyone out who truly tries to develop a sound, even if it was (in my opinion) misguided.  But, we wouldn't necessarily be where we are today with H-J, Ralph Downes (another oft criticised organ innovator) or any other major people in organ building.  It maybe a bit like the Betamax versus VHS argument.  Betamax was by far the most superior machine, but VHS secured the market through market dominance.  Could things have been different if H-J were to have achieved market dominance?

However, as I have said, all is subjective, and what is good to me maybe bad to you and vice-versa!

Jonathan

Well exactly, and something Barry Williams and I have been discussing about house organs.

Jonathan

Dare we ask what size space the organ is in?

Jonathan

Thank you Marcus for a well explained reasoning behind the decision.  It is exciting that Philip Scriven is to play the complete Bach, both for the school and the organ world, it doesn't seem to happen very often these days!  Perhaps there may also be an opportunity to record the instrument in the current temperament for an historical record.  However, I should imagine, once re-tuned 'I was glad' would sound more authentic. 

For one, I will endeavour to attend at least one of Philips recitals, work permitting.

Jonathan