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Messages - John

#1
Gentlemen - we are all going around in circles here!

Yes, I did inform churchwarden JC about this site and this thread.  I recall his words  - "the issue has been discussed at the PCC, a resolution to purchase a digital organ has been passed, the matter is put to bed and will not be reopened".    Their stance is clear and I guess little can be done about that.  The phrase I have used before (and I notice Jonathan has picked up!) is that they appear to be both blinkered and deaf.  Therefore it is highly unlikely that anyone from Crewkerne PCC will be bothered to look here and see all the posting about their church and organ. However, there are many in the congregation who are unhappy with this state of affairs.   I am hoping to organize a meeting of some 'sympathetic' folk but whether they can be stirred enough to make their voices heard at this late stage is a matter for conjecture.  As I have said before, strong-willed people seem to have pushed this through.

By the way, JC assured me the treasurer is keeping a note of who donates what,  I was told it was very little to date, that was several weeks ago.

Yes, I do believe there is a hidden agenda here and I will be quite open - if I have gone too far and this is libel will Admin please remove, but leave it long enough for members to read first.

(1) It is possible the organist is embarrased by some of the ocassional short cyphers and perhaps he is making out the situation is worse than it really is.  (2) Maybe he has been a bit seduced [is it possible to be a BIT seduced?!!] by all the stopknobs, pistons, power and 'shiny' bits of the Makin that was on loan for a couple of weeks.   (3) There may have been a threat of resignation.
 
Probably there is more to it but I don't have any other inklings.  Yes, it could well be as petty as that.

I imagine work on the chancel roof to be years away and I'm sure that if Michael Farley is still attending the Rothwell he will make sure it is well protected with plastic sheeting, as he did for my Tickell at Honiton when part of the aisle ceiling collapsed.

Just about everything everyone has said is valid and it's good the Barry yet once again lays out the legal aspect.

Going back to the sentiment of my opening statement - do we all, myself  definitely included, read, mark and inwardly digest what has previously been posted before dashing off a reply?  just a thought.

Peace and Love :) ......... John
#2
@ Eric        To clarify - the organ in St. Bart's is nowhere near the chancel but in the south transpet, well away from any dodgy roof.   The present action problem is not the result of ingress of water but of wear, as pointed out in the report I posted a few days ago.   That report is not by me but passed to me by a person with intimate knowledge of the innards of this instrument.

Also I have previously made it clear that the funds for roof repairs and funds for the purchase of a toaster are two entirely separate, ongoing appeals so there is no question of one before the other, though I quess they will get the £10K before the £100K.   In that case let's hope they put the stupid thing in the chancel and it gets rained upon!!     

@Admin      You beautifully and concisely paraphrase the long and technical contributions from David and will o the wind with your "sold a pup" - perfect.   The trouble is that it's the next generation that will have to put right the silly wrongs of the current PCC.

ATB ............. John

#3
With respect to the two authors of the above, and I mean respect because they are talking a language I don't understand, their posts have nothing whatsoever to do with St Bartholomew's Crewkerne.   Perhaps a new and completely seperate Topic and Subject should be started, I don't understand how that works either!

I and many others are concerned about a magnificent 15th century building, the pretty OK Rothwell that resides there and the ridiculous situation the PCC have got themsleves into due to pressure from - who knows where? - some of us do!

Regards ........ John
#4
@ Barrie.     You have hit the nail, that is the exact and precise crux of the matter - spending money (which they don't actually have at the moment) in the right area.   A half decent 'toaster' (if there is such a thing) would cost a heck of a lot more than a couple of cans of WD40 + labour, and only last 15/20 years at the maximum.

As I've said before they appear to be both deaf and blinkered.   The PCC have been led down this particular path and it seems that strong-willed persons are ruling the roost.

One can only hope that money for this particular project will not be forthcoming.   I understand the Chancel roof needs many thousands spending on it but there has been a specific request for toaster donations.

Please everyone, keep this alive with your comments and perhaps even suggestions.

ATB .................... John
#5
I feel I should post the following report which has come to hand.   For those able to fully understand - which does not really include me - it will be fascinating reading. 
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It might be interesting to look at some technical issues here.   From the original 1980s paperwork it seems that the Rothwell pneumatic action was two stage with key touch boxes controling primary action purses.   

The valve arrangement required that the purses be under pneumatic strain to hold the notes 'off' and at rest for 'on', not an ideal design it has to be admitted.  The cost of renewing the whole of the pneumatic action was prohibitive, not an uncommon situation it seems.

It further transpires that electrification seemed the preferred option as it provided the basis for improved playing aids and an independent Pedal division.   Something the purists will sniff at no doubt, but a valuable improvement noted by many organists who knew and played the organ as it was. 

However, the ideal option of making e.p. under action engines was also cost prohibitive and so the design was based on substituting the pneumatic purses with lever magnets holding the power pneumatic exhaust/supply valves off by the armature spring.  The note is then turned on when the magnet is energised.   A design study was done and the calculated force due to the wind pressure on the exhaust valve was well within the limit of the magnet's spring force for a reliable action.  In fact, a method exactly similar to a Roosevelt chest with external magnets.

Over the years the armature pivots, which are stainless steel with colloidal graphite lubrication, became sluggish due to dirt and needed the occasional bit of TLC.  However, it now seems that the odd cypher, due to the armature not fully closing, has become a source of some irritation and the reason for the current proposal.

It is indeed strange and illogical that the whole organ is being abandoned (they would say "mothballed") for the sake of a good clean and, at the most extreme, the replacement of some magnets.   There are also insulated sleeves on the key contact striker bars which could be replaced or even rotated via 180 degrees for a new lease of life.

Clearly there are other maintenance tasks that need to be included but the total cost is unlikely to exceed that of a digital machine.

So, there you have it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The final two paragraphs show how unnecessary is the stance, the proposals and the mind-set of the Crewkerne PCC.  They have been persuaded that a toaster is what is needed......... so very, very sad.

Yet it may not even happen, as the previous post has pointed out, lack of finance can be a great preservative..  I suppose a parallel situation was at Chichester Cathdral.

Regards ...................... John
 
#6
Does anybody know what has happened to this organ?    Is it still in the church?
We all know that the Thaxted instrument is important so how does this one in Tottenham compare.

............. John
#7
Someone is having a laugh - £5K for that!!   The owner is chancing his arm i think.  Scrap value £50 max.
I wonder what the 2 bids are.

...............John
#8
I go along with David on this one.  Some twenty odd years ago an organist friend said that he thought the fusion of pipes and electronics was going to be A WAY forward in the future.   I laughed at the time until I remembered that back in the late 70s, when I was organist at St. Bartholomew's Brighton, another electronics friend - by way of an experiment and for fun  - temporarly installed a 32 foot reed on the pedals.  I was working on Mulet's 'Tu es Petra' at the time and the effect in those glorious acoustics was very exciting.   Since then Peter Collins has build his much maligned Swedish organ and I understand that something similar has happened at Higham Ferrers   I certainly know of other builders who have installed digital 32ft Open Woods and the like where space is limited.

These are all large instruments of course, but surely the judicious addition of a few digital stops to a limited number of pipe ranks, such as a Casson, could be sensible and make the instrument viable for a much extended repertory. 

People have asked about the tuning problems.    Although I have absolutely no expertise in the field I do believe there are some clever electronic gizzmos that can sense any fluctuation of temerature etc. and adjust the electronics accordingly.    Problem sorted!!

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of playing or working with such an organ?

Regards ....................... John
#9
It is some time since there was a post on this board which had anyway veered  well away from the subject.   It is also quite a while since I had my meeting with churchwarden John Clotworthy.  Afterwards I did write up a report for posting here but clicked the wrong thing and the whole ******** lot disappeared into the ether!  Now back from holiday I'll have another go.

The Crewkerne situation is exactly as expected, the PCC have passed a resolution and the matter has been put to bed, will not be re-opened for further discussion.  JC confessed that no quotes had been obtained and he couldn't remember what Farley's guesstimate back in 2006 was for. 

I drew his attention to this site, to BIOS and to the fact that another up-to-date quote for action repairs would be a good idea.  He agreed and made some notes.   We went around in circles for an hour when he had to go out to "another meeting" - ? !!

When I first introduced myself the name was known to him. I was therefore quite amused that he felt it necessary to establish my'bona fides'.  It seems that other, mostly uninformed, folk have been asking lots of questions and he was not really prepared to talk any more.  I have a feeling there are underground political aspects that were not forthcoming.

In an email the Archdeacon of Taunton tells me he is keeping an eye on things, that is good news.

It seems therefore that little more can be achieved at the moment except keeping the situation 'alive' in peoples minds, and on here.   As their whole project revolves around money (and JC admitted that litte had been donated as yet - yippee!) we can only wait until such time as they petition for a faculty.... unless anyone has any good ideas.

Regards ........... John
#10
Let me try to clarify 'what is going on'.   Of the two previous organists at Crewkerne Brian Daniels still lives in the parish.   I am in the next town a few miles away.   Brian's wife is a member of the congregation.

Jonathan is quite right.   As well as upholding the tradional values of the pipe organ we are concerned about the rasining of funds and the eventual spending of same.   Our contention is simply that if they are having to raise money anyway WHY are they NOT willing to spend it on repairing or restoring the Rothwell action.  As has been noted on here, the churchwarden is now actively and SPECIFICALLY asking for donations to purchase a toaster.    I believe this to be nothing short of ludicrous and unwise use of public donations, especially when mis-information and fabrications appear to be the basis of their proposal.   The 'sweetener' being offered to the opposers is that the Rothwell will be 'mothballed' until such time as money is available for a restoration.   Can't they see that the money WILL be available, so why spend it on a short-term-fill-the-gap project.    We all know that pipes last for centuries, electonics don't - straight forward as that.

It is tragic that no reputable organ builder has been asked to inspect the action and submit a quotation.

Needless to say there have been a number of 'goings on' around the parish and in the local media.  Many members of the congregation are opposed to the scheme, unfortunately there are a couple of wealthy folk who are probably being persuaded to stump up. 

I intend to try and arrange a meeting with the gentleman - he of the glorious name! - and will report back  here.

.............................John
#11
Jonathan  -  The organist at Crewkerne is perfectly competent and played a mean Buxtehude (on the Makin - eeekk) when I last heard him.   I believe he also has a background in electrical engineering!!!!!

As you suggest, the Rothwell is fine for choral accompaniment but because it it's position, the south transept, the sound does not quite so easily get to the nave.   Mark you, with shrinking congregations that is hardly a problem.   For such a large church the acoustics are not favourable.

.................. John
#12
 Barry  -  My sincere thanks too, your post clearly lays out what I (we all) should know.

Barrie  -   I have just sent off an email to the Archdeacon of Taunton, he is well aware of what's going on.

............. John
#13
May I assure Barrie that when I first heard the name of Crewkerne's churchwarden I nearly spilt my G & T.
The fact that he is also spouting such rubbish is both an added delight and aggravation.

I shall be trying to arrange a meeting with the gentleman, to point him in the direction of this forum and to explain the feelings of so many of us with regard to this impending tragedy. 

Jonathan - your offer is generous but I fear they are pretty much blinkered and deaf.

Incidentally, the demonstration 'organ' was a Makin and in the church for only a couple of weeks, much to the releif of quite a few members of the congregation.

Regards ................ John
#14
OK there Mr Administrator, I'm complying with your request, the first one it seems!

I registered earlier today and have been on the site ever since then, nearly five hours, without even a coffee or lunch break.   It's addictive, so far I've read lots of things I agree with, some which made me laugh and even weep and I've posted three comments already.

My main organ teacher was H.A. Bate (Jennifer's father) and I learned clarinet with Dr John Auton at Chigwell School.   I'm now well into retirement age and have mostly always earned my pennies from music in some shape or form.   I have sung in the choirs of New College Oxford, Ely and Wells Cathedrals and been organist of quite a few churches since the age of 21.  The most important was St. Bartholomew's Brighton, a fantastic, high in all senses church, with a Vienese musical tradition i.e. Mozart, Schubert, Hummel, Weber etc etc. every week.  I was more or less driven away from there by an eccentric (possibly mad) priest and went over to Norway for three and a half years, where an ordinary organist has status and salary - or at least they did in the 80's, maybe things are different now.

I have taugh, played, recited, conducted (choirs, choral societies, orchestras) and even spent time in a record shop and as a welfare worker for the Church Army in Germany.   For a while I worked with Harry Mudd and Abbey records, writing sleeve notes and also some producing of 45's and LPs of organ and choral music.

Although I left my last church appointment five years ago I still get asked to 'help out' at several churches in my area -   which is Somerset, Dorset, Devon borders.

I'm being boring now so won't go on.   Is this the sort of thing you hoped 'newbies' would write?

............. John
#15
I should have added to the previous post that there were NO lectures by the player other than a brief introduction to the audience.  However, I did provide copious notes about the music to be played in the printed programme.

After the concerts some 'good' and plentiful refreshments were available - no just coffee and stale biscuits - when the players and audience mixed and met.   It turned the event into a social occasion.

As Mr Punch would have said  -  "that's the way to do it".
#16
Everything that Tony says is spot on.  Publicity is paramount but there are other things.   At the end of the last century (!!) I was in the happy situation of being able to commission a brand new organ at the church where I was then organist.  Kenneth Tickell built me a superb instrument on the west gallery of S. Paul's, Honiton. 

I then launched a series of four organ concerts a year given by some of the great and the good in the UK.   My brief to all the players was simple, give the general public (our audience) something they know, lots of contrasted music, nothing too long and at least one short item by a living composer.   What's more, we put chairs in the chancel so that people faced the organ (and hear much better) and I had the front panels of the gallery removable so that the audience got a good overall view as well.

For the five years I was in control it all worked extremely well.  I can't say that people flocked in droves to hear these programmes but an average of 60 to 70 was considered reasonable for a small market town.

.......... John
#17
Quote from: Jonathan Lane on March 11, 2011, 09:25:56 PM
I wish they would contact us, after all we are not very far away, and we would be able to show them what could be done, on very little money, to keep the organ in playing order and relatively good condition until further restoration work could be undertaken.  If anyone knows anyone at the church, het them to contact me on 07836 299025 or at organbuilder@jonathan-lane.org.uk ad I will be happy to arrange a visit, and we don't charge for the visit either!

Jonathan


I have only just registered as a member here, I have done so on the suggestion of Brian Daniels.
Both he and I are former organists of this church and are both saddened at the present situation.

Jonathan and others have put their fingers on an important point here.  To the best of our knowledge no reputable organ builder - not even Michael Farley who is currently responsible for tuning and maintenance - has been asked to quote for any repairs to the action now deemed necessary.   The figures of £70/80K being banded about by the churchwardens and the present organist would seem to have been picked out of thin air as part of what can only be described as 'scaremongering' of the uninitiated.

I concurr with the others about the stupidity of spending even £30K on a digital job that can only last up to 20 years and then be redundant.  Surely this is not good stewardship.

Letter and emails have been sent to BIOS, the Diocesan Secretary, the Archdeacon of Taunton and others pointing out the above in the hope that 'Authority' will play it's part in assuring that no ridiculous toaster is allowed into that wonderful building on a permanent basis.

May common sense prevail

.........John.