Organ matters - Organs matter!

Electronic Organs => Electronic Organs => Topic started by: RobCharles1981 on January 12, 2011, 05:32:11 AM

Title: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 12, 2011, 05:32:11 AM
Well Its about time I posted here so hi all!  :)

In One of my main Church's I play I have a Johannus Opus 1105 Organ which was purchased From Makin Organs back in 2001, the organ was built around 1980-1990's and it was brought second hand From what I understand the warranty for the organ has expired way back in 2002.  And since this time Makin Organs have "maintained" it but since last year they came and more or less "mucked it up"

[] I wanted someone else to maintain the organ I was recommended Anthony Bogdan Organ's about maintaining it,  [but] at that point the recent organ maintenance was booked by the Church without my knowing and I felt rather cross nothing was done about this at all.

When I spoke to KH he said the PCC Secretary and Warden didn't want me there and I was livid in the way I was treated and I told him I was going to have a chat with the local Diocesan Organ Advisor and he gave me some good advice about it and tried to speak to my vicar about this which backfired, []  all hell broke loose one Sunday Morning.   You can understand how I felt.

The Church insit Makin Organs for the future and i'm blocked out on communication with them and I'm not having this at all from what I gather the church spent at least £250 for a full service on the organ what a con!!

Another Organ Friend of mine I told him about this and was livid too he recommend me Ormatronix Organs have any forum members have dealings with the guy who runs this and if so what is he like?

Hope you can help.

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on January 12, 2011, 05:33:50 AM
Bin the [edited: inapppropriate language] toaster and get a nice reliable pipe organ  >:(
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on January 12, 2011, 06:56:57 AM
Dear Rob

Perhaps you might like to edit your post as certain parties might not like the detail of the contents - I'm quite sure that we've all got the point. It's important to have a forum where free speech is encouraged but I'm sure that other parties would say that there are two sides to the story - which probably don't need to be aired here. We can certainly understand what you are feeling but it's resulting in what appears to be accusations which perhaps might be taken too seriously. . . and Forum Admins don't want to have to be answering issues of libel . . .

Makins have been very good to me with advice and assistance with the ex Londonderry instrument and once recently when I was in extremis before a concert. Anthony Bogdan helped guide me in the right directions when the instrument first arrived and he's generally a helpful person with great experience.

However, in my panic, Ormatronix was very very highly recommended and http://www.organmatters.co.uk/index.php?topic=314.0 resulted.

What are the general problems you're experiencing with the instrument?

As an aside, give me a budget of £3000 on speakers and WOW! the Parish would never want a pipe organ . . . until the electronics broke down . . .

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 12, 2011, 04:48:31 PM
Hi David and thank you.

The Problems really is down to the lack of maintenance with it, I would rather have someone who is an Organist themselves and who has had many years of experience of repairing organs I was firstly recommended Anthony about this then recently someone recommended Ormatronix.

I want to go with somebody who is cheaper on maintenance and has commonsense.

What did Anthony Bogdan do for you and as well as Ormatonix?

Thanks

Rob
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on January 13, 2011, 07:41:59 PM
Dear Rob

Anthony Bogdan knew the Londonderry Makin from its original installation there and was familiar with the multichannel output and arrangement of internal amplifiers and output controls for output voicing. From his introduction I was able to improve the instrument beyond all recognition. I bought from Makin a digital voicing control box and paying attention to voicing and specifically the quality and disposition of loudspeakers the instrument has been improved very significantly as a result, to the point at which perhaps if it had started that way, I might not have embarked upon its enlargement  in terms of stops and manuals . . .

Ormatronix - I have not had direct experience but when I had an accident putting half the Makin out of action and needed help in a hurry, numerous voices made recommendation in his direction.

To be blunt, however, if one is travelling a significant distance from a central headquarters to visit a specific place individually, a day charge is likely to be substantial - but perhaps a pipe organ builder might not charge much more than that for the tuning of a whole few boxes of pipes. . . .

This is where pipe organs might even represent better value than electronics. The problem is one of business scalability - a pipe organ builder having the maintenance of clutches of instruments in different localities in his care can work around a specific area as a group economising on travelling whereas isolated installations require specific visits and associated travelling.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: Barrie Davis on January 14, 2011, 01:23:40 AM
Dear Rob,

I sympathise with your problems, it is always very hard to seemingly make the right decision and have it shot down in flames by the PCC. I am afraid your local organ advisor will have little or no input into who looks after the instrument, they are only interested in replacements or alterations as those require a faculty.

Makins have some really good engineers who understand Johannus inside out, after all it is the parent company of Makin.

I know Johannus and Makin differ very much over regulation, Makins were regulated on site rank by rank but not Johannus. Apart from the voicing everything else is the same.

Barrie
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 14, 2011, 02:06:13 AM
Hi David:

Thanks very much for the input but I'm not sure why the MD of Makin recons he wasn't trained in Makin or Johannus Organs but he sure does carry allot of knowledge in them and with others.  I think there was a break down in communication somewhere because someone else recommended me Anthony Bogdan too and I tried sticking to my guns or so to speak but he pointed if I went to Anthony and asked for the maintenance and possible speaker installation he then reckons that he's not officially trained but did do work for makin in the past.

The only reason why I was recommended Ormatronix was that he was cheaper than Makin and a Church Musician the Makins own one is not.

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 14, 2011, 02:09:32 AM
Dear Rob,

I sympathise with your problems, it is always very hard to seemingly make the right decision and have it shot down in flames by the PCC. I am afraid your local organ advisor will have little or no input into who looks after the instrument, they are only interested in replacements or alterations as those require a faculty.

Makins have some really good engineers who understand Johannus inside out, after all it is the parent company of Makin.

I know Johannus and Makin differ very much over regulation, Makins were regulated on site rank by rank but not Johannus. Apart from the voicing everything else is the same.

Barrie


Hi Barrie

Our Organ Advisor is an Organist he is the vicar of Hay on Wye, and he offered a few "practical tips"   

As I said to David about Ormatronix I looking at this guy because he is experienced in organ repair and knows his stuff.  The Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Thanks

Rob
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on January 17, 2011, 08:46:25 AM
The Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Dear Rob

Is it digital? Is it early 1990s? If so there may be a small rectangular connector block, possibly 16 pin which might be brought out to the front of the instrument or may be buried in the back and this is the connector for a digital voicing box - and I have one.

If you buy a service manual from WD Greenhill and send it to me I'll happily look it over and see what options the circuits might offer.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 17, 2011, 11:16:25 PM
The Johannus 1105 is old Technology so its not easy to voice this organ.

Dear Rob

Is it digital? Is it early 1990s? If so there may be a small rectangular connector block, possibly 16 pin which might be brought out to the front of the instrument or may be buried in the back and this is the connector for a digital voicing box - and I have one.

If you buy a service manual from WD Greenhill and send it to me I'll happily look it over and see what options the circuits might offer.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

Unfortunately there's no connection what your describing Makin Confirmed this sometime ago, so it requires physcial changes changing resistors.

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on January 18, 2011, 05:43:55 AM
Sounds like a complex job likely not worth doing. You might as well just get a new/nearly new toaster. Better still, have you considered a nice secondhand pipe organ? Beat the pants off the toaster for musicality and longevity. Toasters are a false economy in the vast majority of cases.
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 19, 2011, 02:59:16 AM
Sounds like a complex job likely not worth doing. You might as well just get a new/nearly new toaster. Better still, have you considered a nice secondhand pipe organ? Beat the pants off the toaster for musicality and longevity. Toasters are a false economy in the vast majority of cases.

The Church wouldn't want to to that.

What I'm sensing here, the last correspondence I had from the Church regarding that issue.

I think the issue here is a lack of communication with Makin Organs, when I asked the [name removed] on [name removed] he said that [name removed] Did do some work for them a while ago, then he came back that he wasn't "Officially" trained in Makin or Johannus Organs I was abit skeptical, I seem to remember a time when I spoke with [name removed] a while ago he mentioned Roy Orme that has been Officially Trained so why didn't he say it at this point?

From a recent feedback I had from the Church Council if "we" went to [name removed] Organs for adption of the organ and servicing it would invalidate our existing "warranty" with Makin I've tried at least 5 times to tell the church that there is no warranty on the organ that expired in 2002.

For the sake of Argument if we where to go with [name removed] and he "mucks" up the organ ie putting the wrong speakers or mucking up the electronics to the organ it could result in him "blowing up" the organ or so to speak.

[name removed] Suggests at that time only "approved" people or contractors would be benificial for Argument Sake Roy (OrmatronixOrgans) would be better.

I hope this Makes sense.

Rob
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on January 19, 2011, 04:22:18 AM
Dear Rob

I suspect that Roy at Ormatronix might have a greater in depth electronic knowledge but really one does not need to be too "precious" about electronic maintenance. Electronic organs can be considered generally in functional blocks of which amplifiers and speakers are independant of tone generation and if any disaster should happen to them, they are universally replaceable in a modular way.

If voicing means changing resistors it means that the original instrument is likely to be analogue with tone forming circuits and one simply does not want to muck around with that. However, there may be variable resistors somewhere which can adjust the relative volumes of each stop and there may be associated tone controls. It's not rocket science.

You're quite right to comment that a guarantee that ran out in 2002 is now worthless.

Does the instrument have a MIDI output? This might be useful possibly for Hauptwerk extensions. If it does it suggests a digital basis of sound generation and this can need more specialised knowledge in some circumstances.

Provided your instrument is producing sound, that signal can be taken off to other amplifiers or speakers and used in different ways till your heart's content and most probably by anyone with quite a basic knowledge. I know from past correspondence that you need external speakers rather than the inbuilt typical console speakers - that's not difficult and the speakers need not be expensive.

Other than that, what specifically is the area of maintenance that's troubling you?

If you'd like to sport the cost of the circuit diagram from
http://www.wdgreenhill.com/manu/johannus.htm
I can advise further. The 1105 is not listed - it will be a modified 1100 or something like a 1110 but either Johannus or Greenhill may be able to guide you on which is closest.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on January 19, 2011, 06:29:21 AM
Rob, I've got an idea, not as helpful as David's in the short term - point out that, if they shelled out enough to buy and overhaul a nice redundant pipe organ, they'd likely get a 25-30 year warranty on the work... In that time, they will have to completely replace not only this toaster but its successor too. There will be a severe limit as to how reliable or musically satisfactory this Thing will ever be, even adapted to some form of MIDI system. A simple tracker-action pipe organ can go for half a century without needing any major work and will be much better musically. Also, what I've heard of toaster makers in general is that the aftersales care is often not brilliant... I have no direct experience here, though, so I can't comment.
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 19, 2011, 03:50:05 PM
Dear Rob

I suspect that Roy at Ormatronix might have a greater in depth electronic knowledge but really one does not need to be too "precious" about electronic maintenance. Electronic organs can be considered generally in functional blocks of which amplifiers and speakers are independant of tone generation and if any disaster should happen to them, they are universally replaceable in a modular way.

If voicing means changing resistors it means that the original instrument is likely to be analogue with tone forming circuits and one simply does not want to muck around with that. However, there may be variable resistors somewhere which can adjust the relative volumes of each stop and there may be associated tone controls. It's not rocket science.

You're quite right to comment that a guarantee that ran out in 2002 is now worthless.

Does the instrument have a MIDI output? This might be useful possibly for Hauptwerk extensions. If it does it suggests a digital basis of sound generation and this can need more specialised knowledge in some circumstances.

Provided your instrument is producing sound, that signal can be taken off to other amplifiers or speakers and used in different ways till your heart's content and most probably by anyone with quite a basic knowledge. I know from past correspondence that you need external speakers rather than the inbuilt typical console speakers - that's not difficult and the speakers need not be expensive.

Other than that, what specifically is the area of maintenance that's troubling you?

If you'd like to sport the cost of the circuit diagram from
http://www.wdgreenhill.com/manu/johannus.htm
I can advise further. The 1105 is not listed - it will be a modified 1100 or something like a 1110 but either Johannus or Greenhill may be able to guide you on which is closest.

Best wishes

David P

Hi David

Thanks for the input,

I really like the sound of Roys experience and I will find out more about him when he replies.

I had a little explore of the organ sometime ago, all the resistors are on the voice cards with three points I assume for each division, I'm afraid I've not done electronics in School or nothing like that so I can't go no further in that department, the only way to change the overall volume of the organ is by the additional amplifier controls as there are two of them.  One deals with the Internal and the other the External.

Johannus sent me the service manual to look at of interest.

Yes the organ does have Midi connectors too.  And Roy would be the best one for the external speakers too if he would to advise on the way forward.

At the moment the only problems I have, I done a sound test of the stops and the Great Mixture seems just a little underpowered and not in tune with the others, then on the pedal department the Subbass stop which the "engineer" lowered to a silly level and whats resulted of the organ lost its bass and with that in theory the last 3 notes on the bottom pedal bored are resonating the console, its either coming from the Bass speaker or somewhere else.

Thanks

Rob

P.S added the user manual for the Johannus 1105:

http://www.mediafire.com/?2at2kibrq4zi9ct
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on January 20, 2011, 05:43:42 AM
Dear Rob

Thanks for the link.

This is a digital organ of the early 1990s based on the M114 sound cards. These are 8 bit and by today's standards primitive _but_ the sounds can be remarkably good if processed in the right way.

This means 
I don't know the sound samples of this instrument but from the stop list on page 6 of the service manual, and being aware of two instruments of this character belonging to players on YouTube, one in Italy and one in South America, well voiced, the instrument should be capable of sounding superb.

With regard to tuning of the Mixture, this is odd in that it cannot be out of tune with other stops on the Great, all of which are given pitch common to all stops by the generator board page 11, in particular chip U8, the LM567 main oscillator. This goes through the 4059 frequency dividers and then 4046 Phased Locked Loop chips which generate three seperate frequencies governed by the tremulants and in particular settings for pitch and chorus intensity given by the DIPswitches 1-3 and 5-8 on S1.

I'd imagine that these might do something to your Mixture, possibly affected by how many stops are drawn, although I don't see a feedback mechanism for this, and it might simply be for the Celeste 8ft. Page 16 identifies switches 1-3 as Tuning Swell and 4-8 as Chorus Swell - this may be the Celeste. However, the block diagram Page 1 shows a SELCO . . . 73 bus which may relate to increasing "chorus" as numbers of stops are drawn.

How therefore the Great Mixture can be out of tune is a mystery. This should be a question both for Roy Orme and for David Fetterman at Makins: you need someone who was dealing with these circuits 20 years ago.

Which stops will be adjustable in volume will depend on groupings fed to the amplifiers but these are potentially choosable and alterable with links indicated on the voice cards, P12 to PA1-6 on the main bus. The potentiometers on these cards adjust a voltage bias, nothing to do with voicing, and can be responsible not only for distortion but also a thump, a bit like tracker noise, on each note.

Page 16 indicates the general volume controls for each of the amplifiers on the amplifier cards, and the associated treble and bass controls for each channel. The extent to which these are useful controls depends on stop groupings.

On this vintage instrument, there should be a connector or two for an "INDINOTE" voicing box. With the box one can adjust the volume both of individual notes, as well as individual ranks as well as the extent of chiff or otherwise.

The amplifier boards use a TDA 7250 amplifier circuit controlling TIP142 and TIP147 complementary transistor pairs arranged in the spec sheet guideline:
http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/pdf/TDA7250.pdf
(http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/images/TDA7250-AudioPowerAmp1a50.jpg)

This circuit should be a foolproof short circuit protected circuit, but even despite the fuses, F4 and F3, the short circuit protection fails and it is essential to take care not to short speaker wires by accident at any time that the organ is turned on.

Certainly the Pedal department will be coming through its own amplifier and this should therefore be adjustable directly on the amplifier volume control - an easy adjustment. From Page 2 this looks as though it's the upper amplifier of Amp card A, the left hand of the pair. However, this will also adjust the 16fts on the manuals too . . . and if these are fine at the moment, one will need to use the Indinote voicing box.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on January 20, 2011, 08:01:25 AM
[expletive removed]! David, here is a prime opportunity to get a problematic electrical appliance replaced with a musical instrument and you're offering advice on how to turn it into something which sounds 'superb'! I'm sorry, but no conventionally-sampled toaster will ever sound 'superb' - nor will any toaster match any but the worst pipe organs for longevity. Come on, let's use this opportunity to convince Rob's PCC that they need a nice redundant 2m Conacher/Blackett and Howdon which I know is available, not far from there...
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: organforumadmin on January 20, 2011, 08:46:47 AM
Oh God!

Please would you kindly not blaspheme.


This thread is about a parish whose budget is in hundreds of pounds and where there are clearly diplomatic difficulties where it is unlikely that further funds can be released.


Elsewhere in this forum there have been examples of where electronics that are good enough get replaced by better pipe organs on the basis of the enthusiasm created. The previous post was made in that spirit and it should be obvious to you that the chances of raising a hundred times the budgets currently in issue at the parish to achieve the goal you suggest are hardly likely to be relevant in the circumstances.

Admin
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: NonPlayingAnorak on January 20, 2011, 09:49:28 AM
I wasn't so much blaspheming as issuing a despairing plea to my maker. Are a few diplomatic difficulties (seemingly caused by ignorance of organs/toasters and a certain amount of prejudice and old loyalties dying hard) really insurmountable? I'm sure that a case could be mounted to the PCC that it's not worth spending hundreds, if not more, fixing and improving a toaster that's going to go 'phutt' within a few years anyway. I know of cases where, to keep costs down, organs have been transferred successfully to new homes largely by volunteer labour (this happened a few years back at Lavenham) - for the cost of fixing/improving this thing, then buying a replacement toaster a few years later, the church could be well on its way to securing a half-decent pipe organ which could easily run two new toasters' lifetimes without major work instead. I know of cases where diplomatic issues on PCCs have been overcome and new organ fundraising appeals begun, even in some unlikely places...
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: dragonser on January 20, 2011, 02:01:55 PM
Hi,
with regard to the lower notes on the pedal board resonating in the console, If the organ is about 20 years old or so then it would be worth checking to see if the bolts holding the speakers onto the case have loosened ? as it is possible these would make the lower notes rattle. Of course it is possible that it might be something else. I would suggest trying out the headphone socket to see if you can hear the same sound but I guess that most headphones won't reproduce the low frequencies correctly anyway.....
many thanks also for more tech info about the Organ.

regards Peter B

Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: Barrie Davis on January 20, 2011, 03:25:29 PM
Hi

David you opened my eyes I never realised that a Johannus could be regulated with an ininote box. The few I have had dealings with were simply delivered my Makins plugged in and left, not attempt was made at regulation.

I think that if he was prepared to David Fetterman is a good person to get advice from.

We would all agree that the best solution would be to replace this instrument with a pipeorgan, it would be so good to find a money tree to supply funding for this when so many parishes these days are fighting to pay the regular bills and in the case of the C of E the dreaded quota!!!

Barrie
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 20, 2011, 10:09:27 PM
Dear Rob

Thanks for the link.

This is a digital organ of the early 1990s based on the M114 sound cards. These are 8 bit and by today's standards primitive _but_ the sounds can be remarkably good if processed in the right way.

This means 
  • adjusting amplifiers well,
  • using specifically designed loudspeakers (not generic nor PA speakers) - which can make the most remarkable difference to realism achievable - and
  • an octave coupler can be derived which can totally transform the effectiveness of the instrument, in particular regenerating the lost upper frequency harmonics that cause a chord in the right hand in the top two octaves to be lost, overpowered by a chord in the left hand. These can be applied selectively to certain groups of stops.

I don't know the sound samples of this instrument but from the stop list on page 6 of the service manual, and being aware of two instruments of this character belonging to players on YouTube, one in Italy and one in South America, well voiced, the instrument should be capable of sounding superb.

With regard to tuning of the Mixture, this is odd in that it cannot be out of tune with other stops on the Great, all of which are given pitch common to all stops by the generator board page 11, in particular chip U8, the LM567 main oscillator. This goes through the 4059 frequency dividers and then 4046 Phased Locked Loop chips which generate three seperate frequencies governed by the tremulants and in particular settings for pitch and chorus intensity given by the DIPswitches 1-3 and 5-8 on S1.

I'd imagine that these might do something to your Mixture, possibly affected by how many stops are drawn, although I don't see a feedback mechanism for this, and it might simply be for the Celeste 8ft. Page 16 identifies switches 1-3 as Tuning Swell and 4-8 as Chorus Swell - this may be the Celeste. However, the block diagram Page 1 shows a SELCO . . . 73 bus which may relate to increasing "chorus" as numbers of stops are drawn.

How therefore the Great Mixture can be out of tune is a mystery. This should be a question both for Roy Orme and for David Fetterman at Makins: you need someone who was dealing with these circuits 20 years ago.

Which stops will be adjustable in volume will depend on groupings fed to the amplifiers but these are potentially choosable and alterable with links indicated on the voice cards, P12 to PA1-6 on the main bus. The potentiometers on these cards adjust a voltage bias, nothing to do with voicing, and can be responsible not only for distortion but also a thump, a bit like tracker noise, on each note.

Page 16 indicates the general volume controls for each of the amplifiers on the amplifier cards, and the associated treble and bass controls for each channel. The extent to which these are useful controls depends on stop groupings.

On this vintage instrument, there should be a connector or two for an "INDINOTE" voicing box. With the box one can adjust the volume both of individual notes, as well as individual ranks as well as the extent of chiff or otherwise.

The amplifier boards use a TDA 7250 amplifier circuit controlling TIP142 and TIP147 complementary transistor pairs arranged in the spec sheet guideline:
http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/pdf/TDA7250.pdf
(http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/images/TDA7250-AudioPowerAmp1a50.jpg)

This circuit should be a foolproof short circuit protected circuit, but even despite the fuses, F4 and F3, the short circuit protection fails and it is essential to take care not to short speaker wires by accident at any time that the organ is turned on.

Certainly the Pedal department will be coming through its own amplifier and this should therefore be adjustable directly on the amplifier volume control - an easy adjustment. From Page 2 this looks as though it's the upper amplifier of Amp card A, the left hand of the pair. However, this will also adjust the 16fts on the manuals too . . . and if these are fine at the moment, one will need to use the Indinote voicing box.

Best wishes

David P



Thanks David for this information its helpful.

What sort of speakers would suit this organ do you think? 

With reference to the Mixture stop its not out of tune, its' basically a case that it's under volume compared to it on the swell I can easily tell when I listen carefully.

Moving On.

Do you rough idea how long Royston Orme worked for Makin by any chance???

As far as I can see there is no room for a voice box it simply doesn't have the connector for it, I did look underneath the manuals and rear but nothing was there.

Thanks

Rob
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on January 21, 2011, 07:11:41 AM

What sort of speakers would suit this organ do you think? 

With reference to the Mixture stop its not out of tune, its' basically a case that it's under volume compared to it on the swell I can easily tell when I listen carefully.
As far as I can see there is no room for a voice box it simply doesn't have the connector for it, I did look underneath the manuals and rear but nothing was there.

Dear Rob

Speakers - well I see the stops and I see the amps but unless I'm blind don't see which stops are allocated to each channel. If you can possibly write out the stop list and then play each stop and determine which groups of stops are coming out of each of the existing speakers, I'll be able to give you some useful ideas.

Mixture stop not out of tune - that's a relief! This might be adjustable via the treble control on the relevant amp but that will affect all other stops through that channel too so this might need the indinote box.

The connectors for the voicing box may well be tucked away on a circuit board inside that might not be found easily. Roy Orme may know but David Fetterman definitely will. Both Jonathan Lane and "Hector17" (Paul) both on this forum and who are now both pipe organ men but know also about Makins of this vintage too and might have direct knowledge. You might usefully PM them. (It would be great actually if they might be persuaded to be more noisy in posting stimulating pipe posts!)

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: dragonser on January 21, 2011, 02:58:19 PM
Hi,
from looking at the schematic diagrams I think which stops are allocated to which speakers depends on which links are fitted on the voice cards.
[ for example see page 14 of pdf  top left hand side , r44 can go to any of six links ].
I don't think it is possible to tell from the schematics alone which stops are allocated to which speaker channels. [ or even which samples are on each voice card channel, unless you write down what is written on each eprom ]. certainly one Johannus Organ I worked on a while ago had stop names on the eprom labels.
with regard to voicing I wonder if the values of the resistors r44 and r 38 are the same as the associated resistors r39 and r 45 ?  again looking at the actual voice card is probably the only way of finding out. [ or taking a photo of the card ? ].
there also seem to be links on the amp card which relate to channel allocation as well.....

regards Peter B

Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on January 23, 2011, 01:33:11 AM

What sort of speakers would suit this organ do you think? 

With reference to the Mixture stop its not out of tune, its' basically a case that it's under volume compared to it on the swell I can easily tell when I listen carefully.
As far as I can see there is no room for a voice box it simply doesn't have the connector for it, I did look underneath the manuals and rear but nothing was there.

Dear Rob

Speakers - well I see the stops and I see the amps but unless I'm blind don't see which stops are allocated to each channel. If you can possibly write out the stop list and then play each stop and determine which groups of stops are coming out of each of the existing speakers, I'll be able to give you some useful ideas.

Mixture stop not out of tune - that's a relief! This might be adjustable via the treble control on the relevant amp but that will affect all other stops through that channel too so this might need the indinote box.

The connectors for the voicing box may well be tucked away on a circuit board inside that might not be found easily. Roy Orme may know but David Fetterman definitely will. Both Jonathan Lane and "Hector17" (Paul) both on this forum and who are now both pipe organ men but know also about Makins of this vintage too and might have direct knowledge. You might usefully PM them. (It would be great actually if they might be persuaded to be more noisy in posting stimulating pipe posts!)

Best wishes

David P


Hi David I messaged the users.

As for your reference here's the stop specification of the Johannus Opus 1105:

Accessories                     Great


Swell to Great                          Bourdon              16’
Great to Pedal                          Open Diapason      8’
Swell to Pedal                          Rohrflute         8’
Tremulant Great                  Dulciana         8’
Tremulant Swell                  Octave                 8’
                                Open Flute        4’
Pedal                                                       Twelfth                2⅔‘
                                                                   Super-Octave     2’
Open Diapason       16’             Cornet                IV
Subass                   16’             Mixture             V-VII
Octave                      8’             Clarinet       8’
Gedact                      8’             Trumpet      8’
Choral Bass           4’
Wald Flute               4’            Swell
Open Flute                 2’            
Mixture                       3 Ranks          Open Diapason   8’
Contra Fagotto            32’            Stopped Flute   8’
Trombone                   16’            Viola         8’
Trumpet                        8’            Voix Celeste      8’
Schalmel                      4’            Principal      4’
                               Coppel-Flute      4’
                                Nazard              2 2⅔’
                                Block Flute      2’
                               Tierce         1 3/5’
                                Larigot              1 ⅓’
                                Mixture               III-V
                                Contra Fagotto     16’
                                Oboe          8’
                                Trumpet        8’












Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on January 23, 2011, 05:38:56 AM
Dear Rob

Thanks - it's a start - but we need to know which stops sound through which speakers so we need to identify channels 1, 2 and 3 or whatever and then do the lists of stops assigned to which.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on May 01, 2011, 01:45:02 AM
Hi All.

Sorry its been a while since I posted.

My Parish are having a new vicar in the next few months and I'm going to push for Ormatronix Organs to come and help me out.

I found out from my Organ Friend a little history of my organ and its shocking:

1.   It was built in 1989 so the Technology was old “Analogue”
2.   It was originally a home practice organ before it went into a Church
3.   It was then installed in a parish church in Essex – St James it was removed  due to the church had to shut down
4.   It found a home for a period of time before it got sold back to Makin Organs and was in their “store area”
5.   It got hired out as a replacement organ for the time being it then went back to Makin Organs.
6.   In 1994 it was installed in St Martins In the Field in London due to their organ being renovated
7.   At this time the A and B Amplifiers where added to the organ to the speakers being put around the building.
8.   After a period of time it went back to Makin Organs9.   
9.      In 2001 My Church brought the Organ second hand and it had the 4 External Speakers with it with it the PCC at the time thought it was pointless due to a “small church”
10.   The PCC claimed the console speakers where the “best sound” and not in your face.
11.   Makin Organs kept the speakers and installed them in another Church at St Mary’s in Chadwell.
12.   The Current console speakers have come from CONN Organs – they are of poor sound quality.
13.   Until the year 2000 Makin Organs changed their contractor to “Kawiei Speakers” for better sound properties.

Confused.com



Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on May 01, 2011, 02:59:46 AM
Hi Rob

The instrument is digital, not analogue.

Your church might usefully get on board someone who knows something about speakers.

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on August 15, 2011, 10:27:42 PM
Don't worry folks I've not letting this thread go to the ghosts - our Church are having a new Incumbnet in a couple of weeks, and I will tell him all that's gone on, and I will be getting rid of Makin Organs for good as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on August 16, 2011, 12:13:32 AM
Don't worry folks I've not letting this thread go to the ghosts - our Church are having a new Incumbnet in a couple of weeks, and I will tell him all that's gone on, and I will be getting rid of Makin Organs for good as far as I'm concerned.

:-)

Hi Rob!

I'm sure that someone will be keen to buy it as a practice instrument - there seems to be increasing demand especially for digital instruments on ebay . . . I recommend selling on a Buy It Now basis as the ebay fees are much cheaper than the auction basis.

However, the bottom line for your church is what alternative are you recommending? I'm sure that some sensible/knowledgeable expertise on your instrument would not come amiss, would not be greatly expensive although a realistic budget needs to be provided for, and would go a long way to overcoming the perceived shortcomings . . .

Best wishes

David P

Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: AV on August 16, 2011, 04:55:36 PM
Rob,

I am new to this forum, and so hope I am not sticking my nose where it don't belong.

I am a service technician from Canada, and recently worked on a Johannus Opus 1110.  I am not sure how close your model and the 1110 are related, but the stop list and Opus # would mean they are contemporaries.   I totally transformed the sound of the instrument, after the church had the organ for about 18 years.  The were had, twice, first by salesman/installer of the instrument, and secondly about a year ago by a local sound man who didn't know what he was doing concerning the organ.  The organ also misbehaved occasionally.

I won't bother the forum with the whole story, but here is how it stands,

1) the organ which has 5 audio channels has 2 Yamaha BR12 speakers, 2 Yamaha BR10 speakers, and a re-used plywood box with a quality 15" woofer installed in it.  The reason for the Yamaha speakers is that the sound guy put in 2 Yamaha BR12 speakers (he thought the organ was a single channel organ duplicated 5 times) which were wired in parallel.  Obviously the organ only sounded about 25% thru the external speakers, the rest through the mediocre internal speakers.  The previous speakers totally crappy PA speakers, looked to be from the 50s.

2) I balanced the channels as best as possible.  It ended up being balanced quite nicely.

3) rest of the wok included some re-work on the pedalboard, and finding a cruddy power supply connector.

The organ now sounds like it is fulfilling it's potential - really quite decent, better than some more recent stuff I have come across.

To sort out the audio in relation to it's channeling, I suggest the following,
1) take the back off the organ
2) remove one wire from each speaker (make sure it doesn't short to anything)
3) turn off the reverb
4) go thru each stop - the stops that sound go thru that channel
5) some stops go thru more than one channel, for instance the lowest notes of the Gt. Bourdon goes thru the bass channel.  Some of the manual reed stops go thru 2 channels and are split in C-C# fashion.
6) go thru each speaker this way.

To get the organ to sound right thru external speakers - the mid and treble speakers must have a similar tonality.  The bass is sort of different, but a good setup will get you to the lowest C on the Pedal Subass.

I hope I have been helpful here.

If they hadn't had the sound guy's solution installed a year, I probably would have done something differently, but even so, the result of I did, astounded everybody who heard it.

Why is it that so many in the organ business, and so many purchasers think that speakers and their placement is so unimportant in the musical result  of an organ install.  Sounds like things in England are no different from Canada.

AV

Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: David Pinnegar on August 16, 2011, 05:22:04 PM
I am new to this forum, and so hope I am not sticking my nose where it don't belong.

Hi!

Far from it - welcome - the more the merrier - and thank you for sharing your experience.

My personal opinion is, as you say, that the instrument has good potential and simply needs knowledgeable attention and your suggestions are a good start. . . .

Best wishes

David P
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on August 16, 2011, 07:58:55 PM
Hi Av and welcome

The Opus 1105 I believe was built in the early 1990's as David said to me a couple of posts in this thread I showed him a diagram of the curcuit boards that Johannus sent to me a while ago its apprantly the same laylout at his Organ at Hammerword park.

Here are some videos of this Organ on my youtube channel:

http://youtu.be/9bdlq45HtWE

http://youtu.be/Srz9qP6rh-c

In my opinion you can see the Sound Lacks.

I also believe the company we brought the Organ from back in the Days where ok but since it's gone "more upmarket" we have been had or in my own thoughts been had by sales persons.
My aim at the moment is to move to another person who is cheaper and understands things better from an Organist point of view.

At the moment I'm going into the back of the Organ as I'm not sure what I am doing.

But thanks for the info, it's interesting.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on April 04, 2012, 03:37:11 PM
Hi  All

Haven't posted in a while.

Since the Cold Weather Spell in January the instrument has gone "out of tune" it's virtually non playing now and some of the members of my church where asking what was wrong with the Organ and I told them it's the cold weather and the Church Warden Laughed it off.

Each other Sunday when a service was held the same problem commenced it was driving me nuts.

Anyway cutting a long story short I had to "take" a Sunday off due to matters with the Church and a member of Church who is an Organist played in my absense and he too experienced the same problem in what I'm talking about.

He recommended an Organ Repairer who was reliable and "Good Value for Money" as it happened he was going to the Church to sort out the problem, anyway I went to the Church and I knew the guy who looked after my "house organ" but the annoyance was he didn't know much of these organs and hes fiddled about inside and he sort of new the part needed but this something to do with the Pitch Control Unit?   I don't trust at all, I know for a fact he hasn't been trained in these organs.

I spoke to my Vicar about Ormatronix Organs and this is a must to put right.

What do you think?

Thanks
Rob

Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: diapason on April 04, 2012, 04:43:34 PM
A toaster shouldn't be affected by the cold weather unless, perhaps, the building is damp and this is causing problems with contacts.  If this is the case, then a simple low wattage tubular heater (dampchaser) might help.  I've heard good reports about Ormatronix and they might be able to help.  It's certainly worth asking the PCC to agree to you contacting them for advice.  Otherwise, you might want to try what my first organ teacher did:  He was Organist of a local RAF camp where the organ (this was in the early 1970's) was an awful Livingston Burge.  Reg told me he used to pray for the Lord to send a thunderbolt from Heaven to strike the toaster so that the Air Ministry would provide a better one  ;)  (It never worked for Reg, but a lightning strike on another local church did destroy the Makin one-manual and the insurance payout bought a far better 2-manual & pedal  :)
Good luck!
N
Title: Re: Johannus Opus 1105 Organ Maintenance
Post by: RobCharles1981 on April 04, 2012, 06:31:50 PM
A toaster shouldn't be affected by the cold weather unless, perhaps, the building is damp and this is causing problems with contacts.  If this is the case, then a simple low wattage tubular heater (dampchaser) might help.  I've heard good reports about Ormatronix and they might be able to help.  It's certainly worth asking the PCC to agree to you contacting them for advice.  Otherwise, you might want to try what my first organ teacher did:  He was Organist of a local RAF camp where the organ (this was in the early 1970's) was an awful Livingston Burge.  Reg told me he used to pray for the Lord to send a thunderbolt from Heaven to strike the toaster so that the Air Ministry would provide a better one  ;)  (It never worked for Reg, but a lightning strike on another local church did destroy the Makin one-manual and the insurance payout bought a far better 2-manual & pedal  :)
Good luck!
N


Nigel good to hear from you! :-)

Well as of late the building is not that cold from what I see, but it's been like this as I say for a number of weeks so it does sound that a component has gone kapput but which one I don't know!  Ormatronix is the way forward I'm going to speak with the Church on Sunday I think and get this going.

In a view to come soon in the 17 Years I have been in the parish playing the Organ I'm getting a "Contract" which I've been told is "Good" in it I will be handed over the car of both Organs to myself so this is somthing to look forward too! :-)