Organ matters - Organs matter!

Quote from: KB7DQH on November 14, 2010, 06:43:37 AMI "soaked the sound to my taste"  thus creating  the "acoustical space" of my choice...

Dear Eric

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear any processed versions you have created. The organ is totally and absolutely "dry" in terms of the current Hauptwerk terminology and I mix down around 30 channels to two to be processed by an Alesis Microverb giving a short room acoustic and a Zoom effects processor to give a longer hall acoustic.

I have used longer reverberation in the past but, with a greater treble presence on this occasion, I was worried about a faintly metallic edge to the sound which seems to come across with small speakers but disappears with good speakers at a realistic volume. In due course I'll post a reverberation tail on which comments to improvement will be greatly welcomed.

In due course, I have a bucket-brigade delay line from a 1980s analogue organ and I'm planning to play with this with a couple of differently timed feedback points and treble reduction on each, in order to obtain that treble reducing reverb that we have heard on the samples I posted from the St Maximin disc on another thread of this forum. It might be more realistic than the commercial units

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

I'm wondering if on the facts that are very obvious, the following is a fair summary?

1. An organ was built and donated to the church below full cost and by public subscription some dozen years ago.
2. The builder of the organ was an organist associated with the church.
3. There was a change of organist and clearly the organ lost its aural shine in another's hands
4. There were some minor problems requiring maintenance to some extent
5. In the knowledge that the church had fallen out of love with the instrument, at least one other church was keen to obtain it
6. The instrument ended up largely in a rubbish skip instead of what we on this forum as organ preservationists would regard as responsible rehousing elsewhere, leading to our perspective that wanton destruction has taken place?

The administrators of this forum wish to maintain this forum as a place of free speech and fair comment. I'm sure that many readers will be pleased not to see gratuitous use of four letter words converted into gerunds . . .

Organs should be the instruments of gentle men and ladies who can both accompany with manners and have the guts to pull out the high pressure reeds when necessary . . . and so we much look forward to the results of the ongoing investigations in this matter. However, it's apparent that at this stage somne sort of diplomatic negotiations are bound to be going on somewhere or other. In the Atheist's Corner I have written about the Grove of Nemi where any challenger to the Priest may take up the golden bough with his sword and kill the Priest, and thereafter have to defend his position from future challenges. This sort of process happens especially when people's jobs are on the line, and it is unreasonable in such circumstances to expect or obtain full information.

We look forward to further instalments about what really was going on in Albany and how and why what appears to be corporate vandalism in terms of organicide took place.

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: revtonynewnham on November 13, 2010, 11:09:17 PM
Good idea tough.  Maybe once I've got the church web site, etc up and running I might consider a blog - but don't hold your breath - I don't have enough thime as it is!

Hi!

That's one of the purposes that this forum can serve. If organists and organ builders want to publicise, this is the place where they can . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Especial THANKS to all who kindly offered support and to BD who gave me the magic man's phone number. The result of the concert is that we had people new to the organ as an instrument begging to come back for more and I'm giving a platform to a young 17 year old organist on 18th December who will be playing a full programme including the Reger Passacaglia.

Please can someone on the Hauptwerk Forum pass on my thanks there?

Although hearing through YouTube and computer speakers can't be anything like the real thing, recordings we hope you will enjoy:
David BRIGGS (b. 1962) Homage à Marcel Dupré: Prelude & Fugue in D major
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLvOkW0vwMc

J.S. BACH (1685-1750) from Clavierübung III: (Temperament: Kirnberger III)
Allein Gott in der Hoh sei Ehr BWV 675
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuGad6nboGM
Allein Gott in der Hoh sei Ehr BWV 676
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgFQGHBpUqw

David BRIGGS Homage à Marcel Dupré: Prelude & Fugue in F minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVvdLljs23w

Alfred HOLLINS (1865-1942) Concert Overture in C minor (1899)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD9FFPhyRd4
(interesting to compare with Coventry Cathedral - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1vqWcQXAGk)

J.S. BACH from Clavierübung III: (Kirnberger III temperament)
Christus unser Herr, zum Jordan kam BWV 684
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V140SVz0_xg
Christus unser Herr, zum Jordan kam BWV 685
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GyFn7Wmps8

Sergei RACHMANINOV (1873-1942) Vocalise Op. 34 no.1 (transcribed Nigel Potts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAkSMXEu2yo

David BRIGGS Homage à Marcel Dupré: Prelude & Fugue in E major
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuFyfoA8n3w

In due course, I'll post the Bach items into the temperament section of the forum . . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Anice two manual:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180584608571

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: NonPlayingAnorak on November 10, 2010, 05:30:41 AM
David, it would still be very much worth your while returning to Carshalton, if only for this:
http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi?Fn=Rsearch&rec_index=H00191

It would be great to revisit that organ again. It was indeed that instrument that probably inspired my personal passion for the instrument at around the age of 5 or 6. Perhaps you might enjoin the priest in the direction of this forum and keep us up to date on organ recitals.

Perhaps this pair of posts might usefully be transferred to "inspirational instruments". I'd urge anyone in south east England reading this forum to take an interest in that particular instrument. Andrew Freeman's identification of it to illustrate his book was justified.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

The purpose of the instrument at Hammerwood Park is in now way to promote electronic instruments. Indeed, no-one can buy such an instrument off the shelf and in order to achieve what it does, each component has received special consideration. The purpose of the instrument is merely to be able to promote the repertoire of the King of Instruments.

To that end, Jeremy was delighted to play and to record for YouTube and we hope that you might enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD9FFPhyRd4

We were intrigued to find a vintage recording of this piece at Coventry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1vqWcQXAGk
taken at breakneck speed.

Best wishes

David P

Oh dear! Seeing no new posts today, is this so shocking that everyone has disappeared in horror? :) Am I to be burned at the stake?

Worse is to come.

I was reading today about the worship of the pine tree . . . and guess what  . . . !? It's all linked with the worship of Adonis, Attis, Astate etc. And it gets worse . . .

http://www.bartleby.com/196/81.html

QuoteLike Adonis, he appears to have been a god of vegetation, and his death and resurrection were annually mourned and rejoiced over at a festival in spring. The legends and rites of the two gods were so much alike that the ancients themselves sometimes identified them. Attis was said to have been a fair young shepherd or herdsman beloved by Cybele, the Mother of the Gods, a great Asiatic goddess of fertility, who had her chief home in Phrygia. Some held that Attis was her son.

His birth, like that of many other heroes, is said to have been miraculous. His mother, Nana, was a virgin, who conceived by putting a ripe almond or a pomegranate in her bosom. Indeed in the Phrygian cosmogony an almond figured as the father of all things, perhaps because its delicate lilac blossom is one of the first heralds of the spring, appearing on the bare boughs before the leaves have opened.

Such tales of virgin mothers are relics of an age of childish ignorance when men had not yet recognized the intercourse of the sexes as the true cause of offspring. Two different accounts of the death of Attis were current. According to the one he was killed by a boar, like Adonis. According to the other he unmanned himself under a pine-tree, and bled to death on the spot.

We have Attis, the god of vegetation, born on 25th December, worshipped in conjunction with pine trees, whose priests were unmarried . . . having turned themselves into eunuchs.

QuoteOn the twenty-second day of March, a pine-tree was cut in the woods and brought into the sanctuary of Cybele, where it was treated as a great divinity. The duty of carrying the sacred tree was entrusted to a guild of Tree-bearers.

The trunk was swathed like a corpse with woollen bands and decked with wreaths of violets, for violets were said to have sprung from the blood of Attis, as roses and anemones from the blood of Adonis; and the effigy of a young man, doubtless Attis himself, was tied to the middle of the stem. On the second day of the festival, the twenty-third of March, the chief ceremony seems to have been a blowing of trumpets. The third day, the twenty-fourth of March, was known as the Day of Blood: the Archigallus or highpriest drew blood from his arms and presented it as an offering. Nor was he alone in making this bloody sacrifice. Stirred by the wild barbaric music of clashing cymbals, rumbling drums, droning horns, and screaming flutes, the inferior clergy whirled about in the dance with waggling heads and streaming hair, until, rapt into a frenzy of excitement and insensible to pain, they gashed their bodies with potsherds or slashed them with knives in order to bespatter the altar and the sacred tree with their flowing blood. The ghastly rite probably formed part of the mourning for Attis and may have been intended to strengthen him for the resurrection.

QuoteAt all events, we can hardly doubt that the Day of Blood witnessed the mourning for Attis over an effigy of him which was afterwards buried. The image thus laid in the sepulchre was probably the same which had hung upon the tree. Throughout the period of mourning the worshippers fasted from bread, nominally because Cybele had done so in her grief for the death of Attis, but really perhaps for the same reason which induced the women of Harran to abstain from eating anything ground in a mill while they wept for Tammuz. To partake of bread or flour at such a season might have been deemed a wanton profanation of the bruised and broken body of the god. Or the fast may possibly have been a preparation for a sacramental meal.      

  But when night had fallen, the sorrow of the worshippers was turned to joy. For suddenly a light shone in the darkness: the tomb was opened: the god had risen from the dead; and as the priest touched the lips of the weeping mourners with balm, he softly whispered in their ears the glad tidings of salvation. The resurrection of the god was hailed by his disciples as a promise that they too would issue triumphant from the corruption of the grave. On the morrow, the twenty-fifth day of March, which was reckoned the vernal equinox, the divine resurrection was celebrated with a wild outburst of glee. At Rome, and probably elsewhere, the celebration took the form of a carnival. It was the Festival of Joy (Hilaria).

QuoteAt Rome the new birth and the remission of sins by the shedding of bull's blood appear to have been carried out above all at the sanctuary of the Phrygian goddess on the Vatican Hill, at or near the spot where the great basilica of St. Peter's now stands; for many inscriptions relating to the rites were found when the church was being enlarged in 1608 or 1609.

In relation to precedence for death on a gallows followed by wounding with a spear, it gets worse:

QuoteIn the holy grove at Upsala men and animals were sacrificed by being hanged upon the sacred trees. The human victims dedicated to Odin were regularly put to death by hanging or by a combination of hanging and stabbing, the man being strung up to a tree or a gallows and then wounded with a spear. Hence Odin was called the Lord of the Gallows or the God of the Hanged, and he is represented sitting under a gallows tree. Indeed he is said to have been sacrificed to himself in the ordinary way, as we learn from the weird verses of the Havamal, in which the god describes how he acquired his divine power by learning the magic runes:

"I know that I hung on the windy tree
For nine whole nights,
Wounded with the spear, dedicated to Odin,
Myself to myself."

QuoteTHE WORSHIP of the Great Mother of the Gods and her lover or son was very popular under the Roman Empire. . . .

QuoteAn instructive relic of the long struggle is preserved in our festival of Christmas, which the Church seems to have borrowed directly from its heathen rival. In the Julian calendar the twenty-fifth of December was reckoned the winter solstice, and it was regarded as the Nativity of the Sun, because the day begins to lengthen and the power of the sun to increase from that turning-point of the year. The ritual of the nativity, as it appears to have been celebrated in Syria and Egypt, was remarkable. The celebrants retired into certain inner shrines, from which at midnight they issued with a loud cry, "The Virgin has brought forth! The light is waxing!" The Egyptians even represented the new-born sun by the image of an infant which on his birthday, the winter solstice, they brought forth and exhibited to his worshippers. No doubt the Virgin who thus conceived and bore a son on the twenty-fifth of December was the great Oriental goddess whom the Semites called the Heavenly Virgin or simply the Heavenly Goddess; in Semitic lands she was a form of Astarte. Now Mithra was regularly identified by his worshippers with the Sun, the Unconquered Sun, as they called him; hence his nativity also fell on the twenty-fifth of December.

The Gospels say nothing as to the day of Christ's birth, and accordingly the early Church did not celebrate it. In time, however, the Christians of Egypt came to regard the sixth of January as the date of the Nativity, and the custom of commemorating the birth of the Saviour on that day gradually spread until by the fourth century it was universally established in the East. But at the end of the third or the beginning of the fourth century the Western Church, which had never recognised the sixth of January as the day of the Nativity, adopted the twenty-fifth of December as the true date, and in time its decision was accepted also by the Eastern Church. At Antioch the change was not introduced till about the year 375 A.D.      

  What considerations led the ecclesiastical authorities to institute the festival of Christmas? The motives for the innovation are stated with great frankness by a Syrian writer, himself a Christian. "The reason," he tells us, "why the fathers transferred the celebration of the sixth of January to the twenty-fifth of December was this. It was a custom of the heathen to celebrate on the same twenty-fifth of December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and festivities the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day and the festival of the Epiphany on the sixth of January. Accordingly, along with this custom, the practice has prevailed of kindling fires till the sixth."

The heathen origin of Christmas is plainly hinted at, if not tacitly admitted, by Augustine when he exhorts his Christian brethren not to celebrate that solemn day like the heathen on account of the sun, but on account of him who made the sun. In like manner Leo the Great rebuked the pestilent belief that Christmas was solemnised because of the birth of the new sun, as it was called, and not because of the nativity of Christ.      

  Thus it appears that the Christian Church chose to celebrate the birthday of its Founder on the twenty-fifth of December in order to transfer the devotion of the heathen from the Sun to him who was called the Sun of Righteousness. If that was so, there can be no intrinsic improbability in the conjecture that motives of the same sort may have led the ecclesiastical authorities to assimilate the Easter festival of the death and resurrection of their Lord to the festival of the death and resurrection of another Asiatic god which fell at the same season.

Now the Easter rites still observed in Greece, Sicily, and Southern Italy bear in some respects a striking resemblance to the rites of Adonis, and I have suggested that the Church may have consciously adapted the new festival to its heathen predecessor for the sake of winning souls to Christ.

It really does appear that so much of which that wraps up Christianity has very long roots and traditions before Christ . . . and it's for this reason that I have always maintained that the only things upon which we can rely as Christians are Christ's teachings, his parables and actions.

As a Roman I'm very sure that Saul knew exactly what he was doing on the road to Damascus and certainly by what he did for Christianity, Christ's teachings have been preserved and passed down. He and his successors cleverly sold the story as all things to all men, preserving the continuing vestiges of the bureaucracy of Roman power.

These are the reasons for stripping away the raiments of the Religion down to the naked and universal truths of Christ's teachings. In doing so, one is able to remove all the impediments to cooperation and understandings between faiths. They probably have rather a lot in shared common origins.

I do hope that the rabid trainee priest I met at the funeral at the United Reformed Church in Carshalton in the summer comes to read this thread.

Quote. . . the tradition which placed the death of Christ on the twenty-fifth of March was ancient and deeply rooted. It is all the more remarkable because astronomical considerations prove that it can have had no historical foundation. The inference appears to be inevitable that the passion of Christ must have been arbitrarily referred to that date in order to harmonise with an older festival of the spring equinox.

This is the view of the learned ecclesiastical historian Mgr. Duchesne, who points out that the death of the Saviour was thus made to fall upon the very day on which, according to a widespread belief, the world had been created. But the resurrection of Attis, who combined in himself the characters of the divine Father and the divine Son, was officially celebrated at Rome on the same day.

When we remember that

• the festival of St. George in April has replaced the ancient pagan festival of the Parilia; that
  
• the festival of St. John the Baptist in June has succeeded to a heathen midsummer festival of water: that
  
• the festival of the Assumption of the Virgin in August has ousted the festival of Diana; that
  
• the feast of All Souls in November is a continuation of an old heathen feast of the dead; and that
  
• the Nativity of Christ himself was assigned to the winter solstice in December because that day was deemed the Nativity of the Sun;

we can hardly be thought rash or unreasonable in conjecturing that the other cardinal festival of the Christian church—the solemnisation of Easter—may have been in like manner, and from like motives of edification, adapted to a similar celebration of the Phrygian god Attis at the vernal equinox.

As Christians we have to ask ourselves "What is our core faith?". Is it the accoutrement of baggage brought over from savage times - even though it's parallels may reveal truths - or the teachings and actions of Christ? Is it the carrots of reward and comfort zone brought over from other religions and subsumed into ours as part of "our story" to feed our own egos, provide "our identity" superior to others, in which we have pride (deadly sin) and cause us to have to defend and fight others merely to protect our ego? Or is it the teachings of Christ which promote universal harmony in the natural order of life in this realm seen and in the others unseen?

Were christianity to be focussed not on the baggage of subsumed paganism but upon the actual teachings and actions of Christ, not necessarily as told by the salesmen who brought them into the Roman religion, then I'm sure many would not rebel in declaring atheism.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

On the Organists who think they are Atheists thread I mentioned The Golden Bough by Frazer.

Aeneas and the Sybil have just presented the Golden Bough, which allows entry to the Elysian Fields, to the gatekeeper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough

QuoteIn this sacred grove there grew a certain tree round which at any time of the day, and probably far into the night, a grim figure might be seen to prowl. In his hand he carried a drawn sword, and he kept peering warily about him as if at every instant he expected to be set upon by an enemy. He was a priest and a murderer; and the man for whom he looked was sooner or later to murder him and hold the priesthood in his stead. Such was the rule of the sanctuary.

It's online, chapter by chapter at
http://www.bartleby.com/196/
and I recommend its study.

As a matter of mere entertainment here, the following passage makes the mind boggle. If ever you have fancied more than one lady on your life, or to die in the lap of a nubile virgin, or had aspirations to be prime-minister, or king . . . BEWARE!

http://www.bartleby.com/196/62.html

QuoteA custom of putting their divine kings to death at the first symptoms of infirmity or old age prevailed until lately, if indeed it is even now extinct and not merely dormant, among the Shilluk of the White Nile, and in recent years it has been carefully investigated by Dr. C. G. Seligman. The reverence which the Shilluk pay to their king appears to arise chiefly from the conviction that he is a reincarnation of the spirit of Nyakang, the semi-divine hero who founded the dynasty and settled the tribe in their present territory. It is a fundamental article of the Shilluk creed that the spirit of the divine or semi-divine Nyakang is incarnate in the reigning king, who is accordingly himself invested to some extent with the character of a divinity. But while the Shilluk hold their kings in high, indeed religious reverence and take every precaution against their accidental death, nevertheless they cherish "the conviction that the king must not be allowed to become ill or senile, lest with his diminishing vigour the cattle should sicken and fail to bear their increase, the crops should rot in the fields, and man, stricken with disease, should die in ever-increasing numbers."

To prevent these calamities it used to be the regular custom with the Shilluk to put the king to death whenever he showed signs of ill-health or failing strength.

One of the fatal symptoms of decay was taken to be an incapacity to satisfy the sexual passions of his wives, of whom he has very many, distributed in a large number of houses at Fashoda. When this ominous weakness manifested itself, the wives reported it to the chiefs, who are popularly said to have intimated to the king his doom by spreading a white cloth over his face and knees as he lay slumbering in the heat of the sultry afternoon.

Execution soon followed the sentence of death. A hut was specially built for the occasion: the king was led into it and lay down with his head resting on the lap of a nubile virgin: the door of the hut was then walled up; and the couple were left without food, water, or fire to die of hunger and suffocation. This was the old custom, but it was abolished some five generations ago on account of the excessive sufferings of one of the kings who perished in this way. It is said that the chiefs announce his fate to the king, and that afterwards he is strangled in a hut which has been specially built for the occasion.      

  From Dr. Seligman's enquiries it appears that not only was the Shilluk king liable to be killed with due ceremony at the first symptoms of incipient decay, but even while he was yet in the prime of health and strength he might be attacked at any time by a rival and have to defend his crown in a combat to the death. According to the common Shilluk tradition any son of a king had the right thus to fight the king in possession and, if he succeeded in killing him, to reign in his stead.

As every king had a large harem and many sons, the number of possible candidates for the throne at any time may well have been not inconsiderable, and the reigning monarch must have carried his life in his hand.

But the attack on him could only take place with any prospect of success at night; for during the day the king surrounded himself with his friends and bodyguards, and an aspirant to the throne could hardly hope to cut his way through them and strike home. It was otherwise at night. For then the guards were dismissed and the king was alone in his enclosure with his favourite wives, and there was no man near to defend him except a few herdsmen, whose huts stood a little way off. The hours of darkness were therefore the season of peril for the king. It is said that he used to pass them in constant watchfulness, prowling round his huts fully armed, peering into the blackest shadows, or himself standing silent and alert, like a sentinel on duty, in some dark corner.

When at last his rival appeared, the fight would take place in grim silence, broken only by the clash of spears and shields, for it was a point of honour with the king not to call the herdsmen to his assistance.      

  Like Nyakang himself, their founder, each of the Shilluk kings after death is worshipped at a shrine, which is erected over his grave, and the grave of a king is always in the village where he was born. The tomb-shrine of a king resembles the shrine of Nyakang, consisting of a few huts enclosed by a fence; one of the huts is built over the king's grave, the others are occupied by the guardians of the shrine. Indeed the shrines of Nyakang and the shrines of the kings are scarcely to be distinguished from each other, and the religious rituals observed at all of them are identical in form and vary only in matters of detail, the variations being due apparently to the far greater sanctity attributed to the shrines of Nyakang. The grave-shrines of the kings are tended by certain old men or women, who correspond to the guardians of the shrines of Nyakang. They are usually widows or old men-servants of the deceased king, and when they die they are succeeded in their office by their descendants. Moreover, cattle are dedicated to the grave-shrines of the kings and sacrifices are offered at them just as at the shrines of Nyakang.      

  In general the principal element in the religion of the Shilluk would seem to be the worship which they pay to their sacred or divine kings, whether dead or alive. These are believed to be animated by a single divine spirit, which has been transmitted from the semi-mythical, but probably in substance historical, founder of the dynasty through all his successors to the present day. Hence, regarding their kings as incarnate divinities on whom the welfare of men, of cattle, and of the corn implicitly depends, the Shilluk naturally pay them the greatest respect and take every care of them; and however strange it may seem to us, their custom of putting the divine king to death as soon as he shows signs of ill-health or failing strength springs directly from their profound veneration for him and from their anxiety to preserve him, or rather the divine spirit by which he is animated, in the most perfect state of efficiency: nay, we may go further and say that their practice of regicide is the best proof they can give of the high regard in which they hold their kings. For they believe, as we have seen, that the king's life or spirit is so sympathetically bound up with the prosperity of the whole country, that if he fell ill or grew senile the cattle would sicken and cease to multiply, the crops would rot in the fields, and men would perish of widespread disease. Hence, in their opinion, the only way of averting these calamities is to put the king to death while he is still hale and hearty, in order that the divine spirit which he has inherited from his predecessors may be transmitted in turn by him to his successor while it is still in full vigour and has not yet been impaired by the weakness of disease and old age. In this connexion the particular symptom which is commonly said to seal the king's death-warrant is highly significant; when he can no longer satisfy the passions of his numerous wives, in other words, when he has ceased, whether partially or wholly, to be able to reproduce his kind, it is time for him to die and to make room for a more vigorous successor. Taken along with the other reasons which are alleged for putting the king to death, this one suggests that the fertility of men, of cattle, and of the crops is believed to depend sympathetically on the generative power of the king, so that the complete failure of that power in him would involve a corresponding failure in men, animals, and plants, and would thereby entail at no distant date the entire extinction of all life, whether human, animal, or vegetable. No wonder, that with such a danger before their eyes the Shilluk should be most careful not to let the king die what we should call a natural death of sickness or old age. It is characteristic of their attitude towards the death of the kings that they refrain from speaking of it as death: they do not say that a king has died but simply that he has "gone away" like his divine ancestors Nyakang and Dag, the two first kings of the dynasty, both of whom are reported not to have died but to have disappeared. The similar legends of the mysterious disappearance of early kings in other lands, for example at Rome and in Uganda, may well point to a similar custom of putting them to death for the purpose of preserving their life.      

  On the whole the theory and practice of the divine kings of the Shilluk correspond very nearly to the theory and practice of the priests of Nemi, the Kings of the Wood, if my view of the latter is correct. In both we see a series of divine kings on whose life the fertility of men, of cattle, and of vegetation is believed to depend, and who are put to death, whether in single combat or otherwise, in order that their divine spirit may be transmitted to their successors in full vigour, uncontaminated by the weakness and decay of sickness or old age, because any such degeneration on the part of the king would, in the opinion of his worshippers, entail a corresponding degeneration on mankind, on cattle, and on the crops. Some points in this explanation of the custom of putting divine kings to death, particularly the method of transmitting their divine souls to their successors, will be dealt with more fully in the sequel. Meantime we pass to other examples of the general practice.

If anyone can find the section from the unabridged edition, I'd be very interested to see Frazer's analysis of the Crucifiction.

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: Michael H on November 08, 2010, 07:51:17 PM
I wonder if people think I am an atheist? The reason is: I believe in God but I believe God does not exist. Anything that exists is by definition limited, and I cannot consider God as limited - rather, God is beyond existence. Perhaps I am a Christian atheist! It seems to me that people who normally think they are atheists are rejecting the very limited attempts to 'define' God. The Church needs that kind of understanding and that kind of input. Too often we make God in the image of man rather thsn thinking man is the image of God.
And where does music come into this? Just listen to (or play) some Bach (not emotional and turbulent 19th & 20th century organ works or pieces composed to demonstrate how clever the organist might be!) or listen to Allegri's Miserere or Tallis and you are carried beyond the inspiration that led to that music, you are lifted above questionable theology and trivial beliefs and you experience a deeper level of understanding. Increased consciousness - that's what we all need.

Dear Michael

This must be one of the most profound descriptions or affirmations that anyone can give . . . Perhaps priests should become organists . . . ?

:-)

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

http://estivales.perso.sfr.fr/histoire/index.html is an interesting organ at Carcassonne restored in modern times by the great Formentelli who has been responsible in addition for Albi and Rieti.

http://estivales.perso.sfr.fr/composition/index.html is intriguing - Recit is on IV with Flute and Oboe sounds together with the Cornet, putting the Oboe on steroids and a distinction is made between Positif de Dos on I, conventionally, and Positif d'Intérieur on III.

This is quite amusing as in making additions to the Hammerwood Park instrument I was really troubled by what to call the further stops added to III. As they were not under expression, and in relation to their character, I called it the Positif department, much to the confusion and eye-brow raising of all visiting organists. Yesterday, I removed the label. Tomorrow I'm going to have to print another!

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Yes - thanks so much for posting details of this. It is a MUST go to event. Harpsichords, chamber organs, harps, lutes, flutes . . . and a whole lot more. Most importantly, however, is the range of sheet music available which often includes significant organ repertoire.

The problem is navigating to find somewhere to park the car. Getting down into the town seems an impenetrable maze so twice now I've parked in the park and walked down. If you do that don't linger at the end of the day. Last year I nearly got shut in the park!

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

Apologies for this not being obviously organistic . . . on the other hand going to an orchestral concert can give one a wider appreciation of organ registration.

The Orchestre Régional de Cannes is quite superb http://www.orchestre-cannes.com/ and in the Evénements section you'll see find the list of forthcoming events, which are temptingly exciting.

It's so easy to go to a holiday destination and miss out on great cultural activities nowadays patronised only by the cognoscenti locals. For my part, one of the influences in my life was for three memorable years of years of youth between 6 and 9, going to the outside concerts of the orchestra at Menton on warm summer evenings.

It's for this reason that it's SO important for children to be taken to such events instead of being disenfranchised on account of "not being interested in that" . . . Take them, and they might be!

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

During my panic over the weekend, the name Royston Orme was mentioned more than once - http://www.ormatronixorgans.co.uk/

Whilst other people are very knowledgable and practical, Royston has versatility to his repertoire:
    * Ahlborn
    * Bradford Computer Organs
    * Cantor
    * Content
    * Gem
    * Makin
    * Norwich
    * Phoenix
    * Viscount & Wyvern

Um. Does that leave anything that he can't cope repair?

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: Michael H on November 08, 2010, 08:22:37 PMDoes anyone share my belief that it's about time we considered reincarnation? Reincarnation forms part of the deeper understanding of Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and even Christianity (although it is officially denied by the church, of  course - but that's  a subject for another discussion) and it makes so much sense of those difficult issues that the Christian Church tries in vain to grapple with. David, you said somewhere that we come naked  to this world and leave in the same way; in one sense I agree with you but I also believe that we bring much with us in terms of karma (or baggage) from past lives and we take any more baggage with us to be sorted out hopefully in the next incarnation - our job is to try to get rid of our existing baggage and not to acquire any more. 

Hi!

I have a lot of sympathy with this and am influenced by Alice Bailey, a descendant of Benjamin Henry Latrobe, who went to India and found that Christianity and Buddhism were not in conflict and were mutually compatible. Another influence has also been the Parthenon Frieze which appears to show the First Judgment, entirely compatible with the Christian Last Judgment, and shows monotheism deriving from polytheism and identifying qualities which have to be eliminated from one's heart in order to achieve Nirvana, compatible with Buddhism.

What to achieve Nirvana? Elimination of desire, deceipt and hate from one's heart. Hardly anti-christian.

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

The Schumann - it's on a Bechstein of the mid 1890s - and the pianist is Adolfo Barabino.

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: revtonynewnham on November 08, 2010, 03:19:02 PMWhilst Crosivda is right - being a good musician doesn't necessarily mean that you are a good church musician - there's a whole raft of questions, surrounding this, including issues of commitment and accountability, but for me the key question is:- "Is it right for a non-believer to take a position of leadership in Christian worship?"  In an ideal world, the answer would be a very firm "no" - but we don't live in an ideal world!

:-) WOW! Is this the first thread on this forum to have reached its second page? :)

I think that it's part of the miracle of organs, and of bells, that sometimes the church invites into its faith people who have competance with such instruments requiring such total mastery who might otherwise not come into church. Through that experience, even on a subconscious level, the church has an influence on people who are not necessarily religious . . .

Somewhere on this thread or another I read a reference to the "two agnostics" on this list . . . I'm wondering if that included me? I raise questions which, I'm sure, many people have in their minds but don't always necessarily want to express, and that their exposure out in the open can only do good.

If I appear agnostic, it's because I'm not actually, quite. As a physicist who pays hommage to the natural laws of the universe from which I acknowlege none can escape - <<in the beginning was the "word", the "law", the "sound">> - I am neither agnostic nor atheist . . . but I challenge the stories that we are spoon-fed being taken at face value in their full literal sense. Just as Christ spoke in parables, all those stories of relgion are themselves a parable to the eternal truths, but just as with parables, one has to scratch beneath the surface to discover their profundity.

The problem is in the personification of God. The personification happens because through the natural laws of physics and quantum physics, both in the dimensions that we can see and those which we cannot, present themselves in the natural order of time to work as a giant system which holds together and which presents the illusion of a giant intelligent mind. That's because all things are linked, as in the mind, and so arguably is a mind. In that is literally the mind of God.

Of course the parables and the stories that we experience are the means by which the knowledge of the infinite mystery of the mind is discovered and transferred.

Organists and composers who master an instrument and its works which lead to the contemplation of the mind should certainly be part of the machinery of the operation of the propagation of the mind of God.

Perhaps I'm saying that people exist whose faith extends deeper than the superficial appearances of Christianity, or Islam, Hindu, Jain or Buddhist philosophy.

A book on everyone's reading list should be "The Golden Bough" by Frazer. Tracing religion to the worship of trees, anthropologically the author investigates the evolution of religion. Somewhere along the line, Kings always had to be killed. Today we set up politicians only to murder them by a subsequent generation of voting. There are some very amusing and also profound examples of this in primitive societies which I'll transcribe if anyone would like me to.

Godliness and Kingship were always akin and Kings, as the all powerful on earth, were often worshipped as Gods. On the basis of this, it is only to have been expected that INRI Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum should be killed whilst he was still a hero and his people thereby required him to be killed. It's a story of human nature and part of the eternal mystery of our psyche and the mind of the universe from which it derives . . .

Best wishes

David P

Quote from: pwhodges on October 18, 2010, 04:49:51 AMI've never investigated the physics of flue pipes - though I do know that it is not well researched, and that there is some disagreement about the niceties of how they work.  The open end is indeed out of phase with the mouth,  . . .

(2) On the matter of speaker defects, my objection to using them deliberately as part of the character of the sound is partly to do with its being unnecessary, and partly because of uncontrollability.  Whatever character is being added to the sound by the speaker, we can add more repeatably in the electronics;  . . .

(3) if the speaker was able to simulate the spacial distribution of the sound from a pipe - but I get no sense that we are close to doing that in a realistic way.

Hi!

(1) different sounds from different ends of the pipe - as a result of my toasting accident this weekend, I had to revoice numerous Makin stops. In the early 1990s Makin incarnations, certain stops were split between channels, notably the Great Open. Of the two channels, one was flute sounding and second harmonic, whilst the other was a creamy reedy principal type of sound. This would accord with the concept of the main sound coming from the mouth with just some low harmonic flute elements coming from the other end of the pipe.

(2) Uncontrollability of speakers and easier control through electronics . . . ? Um. ??? Face a speaker into a saucepan and the sound will sound more like a clarinet. I have not needed to do that, but the results are quite reliable. Interestingly there is a British speaker manufacturer that seems to have a fetish for saucepan enclosed speakers, with holes in, and I can't understand why. However, it remains an area where it's "horses for courses . . . "

(3) Spacial distribution of pipes . . .I beleive I might have started to crack that one and am looking forward for an opportunity to experiment mere . . .  Give me a ring when you're heading for the south east and I'll put the kettle on . . .

Finally, and don't tell the toaster manufacturers . . . from today's concert experience, given the right treatment, there is no reason whatever why electronic organs have to be any less than truly inspirational. However, we are coming across a generation of electronic (and that means software nowadays) who have never even heard of Quad electrostatics and currently commercial electronics developed without knowledge of the developments of speakers from the 1920s to the early 1960s and accordingly modern systems have little hope of achieving such ends. Arguably principles of speaker design have not advanced since then . .

Best wishes

David P

Hi!

It's a great credit to Makin that the instrument survived the accident and also to their stalwart engineer who was happy to speak with me out of hours on a Saturday morning, particularly thanks to the brilliant member of this forum who gave me his number.

THANKS particularly also to members of the Hauptwerk community who came up with offers of help. I owe all of you a ton of thanks and returned favours - and so if I can do anyone favours in return I'll be very happy to help out.

The result? YES - worthwhile - SCORED! Unfortunately we only had one member of the audience under 18 but after the recital I heard him go up to Jeremey - "Thanks so much for the recital - it was great - I normally go to sleep during recitals but your's was brilliant".

So this one young person's experience of the organ and, with luck, his continued enthusiasm has benefitted from everyone's support in having made this concert possible. THANKS!

Audience - about 50, so we did a little better than Hove.

Best wishes and particular THANKS!

David P

Hi!

Thanks so much for the beneath plaster idea. It gave me another idea which I converted into a usable scheme and gave a trial run for the reverb today. The result turns out to be really excellent hi-fi speakers and an idea to install into a pipe organ without disturbing pipework for when a pipe organ is being mothballed and an electronic install in the interim. It's capable of installation without obtrusivity in the organ space and make any trashing of pipes totally avoidable and inexcusable.

Best wishes

David P